How many times have you heard the phrase, “Get real”? This episode extends our back-to-school conversation and focuses on the data and real-time information that will help teachers create classrooms that are places of success for every student. From recognizing that nearly a third of all fourth graders score below basic in reading, with another third at very basic levels, to early assessments that will identify those students who need extra support, this episode will “get real” about supporting striving readers from the first weeks of school forward. The conversation stretches from early grades through upper elementary, middle, and high school, emphasizing building strong reading and writing foundational skills in the K–3 years. It’s an urgent, important message full of optimism as our hosts look at the tools, supports, and knowledge that will lead to literacy.
Subscribe to our Literacy Talks podcast digest and never miss an episode! We’ll send you summaries of every session, links to the resources discussed on each show, and some extra goodies so that your learning never stops.
Subscribe to our podcast digest.
Download the new Reading Horizons Discovery Product Guide.
Access the show notes.
Read the transcripts.
How many times have you heard the phrase, “Get real”? This episode extends our back-to-school conversation and focuses on the data and real-time information that will help teachers create classrooms that are places of success for every student. From recognizing that nearly a third of all fourth graders score below basic in reading, with another third at very basic levels, to early assessments that will identify those students who need extra support, this episode will “get real” about supporting striving readers from the first weeks of school forward. The conversation stretches from early grades through upper elementary, middle, and high school, emphasizing building strong reading and writing foundational skills in the K–3 years. It’s an urgent, important message full of optimism as our hosts look at the tools, supports, and knowledge that will lead to literacy.
Subscribe to our Literacy Talks podcast digest and never miss an episode! We’ll send you summaries of every session, links to the resources discussed on each show, and some extra goodies so that your learning never stops.
Subscribe to our podcast digest.
Download the new Reading Horizons Discovery Product Guide.
Access the show notes.
Read the transcripts.
Hello literacy leaders and champions. Welcome to literacy talks, a podcast series from Reading Horizons dedicated to exploring the ideas, trends, insights and practical issues that will help us all improve our professional practice knowledge and confidence in teaching reading. Our host is Stacy Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor at Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education and Lindsay Kemeny, and author and a Utah based elementary classroom teacher. Today's episode features more about welcoming students back to school and making every classroom a place for literacy success. From initial assessments and using technology to working successfully with colleagues and families. This episode is packed with ideas and inspiration. Let's get started.
Stacy Hurst:Welcome to another episode of literacy talks. I'm the host Stacey Hurst. And I'm joined by my co host, Donell Pons. And Lindsay Kemeny. And by the time this episode is airing, it will be what we all call back to school season. So our topic today is related to that and a continuation of a conversation we had previously. So Donell, you are going to start the conversation. And then just for the listeners sake after we stopped recording the conversation, as it frequently does kind of carried on a little bit. So that was the point when we thought yeah, this would be good thoughts for our listeners to hear. So Donell, do you want to tell us what we're going to be talking about today?
Donell Pons:Yeah, so as we always do with a lot of topics, we say, Oh, you could have done that for a lot longer. And this was one of those topics that just seemed to carry on. And it also is kind of related to some things that we've been seeing in the media of late. And that is talking about statistics. So it's statistic time again, during the summer, we seem to have had time to gather data from the previous year. And then you see a lot of headlines that come out to talking about it. So there were a couple of thoughts about continuing in our conversation about preparing for your students to return to classrooms in the fall, also teachers how they prepare themselves to be in the classroom. And one of those things we talked about is looking at when students have difficulty, particularly we're talking about reading with reading, and writing those core fundamental skills in the classroom. And how do you accommodate students who may be challenged in those areas have difficulties. But I also want to talk about the statistics a little bit, because oftentimes, when you have a conversation like that people might think, Oh, how many students? Is that? Is that a couple of students? Right? Oh, you know, maybe I've had a few students in my career, oftentimes, you might hear this, but let's just hear a few statistics about reading difficulties. So according to the 2015 national assessment for educational progress, and that's a test that many of us are familiar with, it's a big national tests, they take a sampling, we've had data now for a long time, that tells us, essentially, we're looking at math, reading science, sometimes that 31% of all fourth graders have scored below basic in reading, and an additional 33% have only achieved basic competence. So now we're looking at a majority of students right there, that have only achieved in fourth grade a score of below basic in reading, that's 31% of them, and 33% that have only achieved basic, competent competence. This is not a new statistic we're hearing, and only 36% of all fourth graders are proficient or advanced. That's not the majority. So as we're thinking about those classrooms, and coming back into those classrooms, in the fall, we know that the majority of our students are striving to get to that competent level and hopefully beyond where they're feeling like, Hey, I've really got this, this feels really good to me, I enjoy this. So thinking in that light of there are probably a majority of students in a classroom at any given time. And then depending on where you're teaching, and the challenges that you may be facing could be even higher. What are ways in which we can set up our classrooms that will be a place of success for students, that this is not coming easily to them? And so I think I'll start maybe Stacey heavy jump in on the conversation because you offered some insight, not only as a classroom teacher, but also a Teacher of teachers. You're facing it on two ways.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah. And I'm, I'm thinking also about my experience as a literacy coach, because I remember hearing those statistics, I really appreciate that you started with that. Because we do have a tendency to say, well, that's not us, right. That may be happening. somewhere but not in my school, not in my class. And I thought that as a first grade teacher, and then I became a literacy coach. And then I saw data school wide and district wide and statewide and it aligned with the NAEP data. So I think the very first step is exactly what you said, to recognize that it is more likely than not that you will have students in your class that are needing extra support. And that we don't want to make assumptions about that. So when I teach my pre service teachers, specifically, I just state it as a fact. And I say you will, depending on the grade you're teaching, sometimes it'll be more obvious than not. So I think it's important to talk about how to use assessment and all forms of assessment to figure out who might need that extra support. But it is, I think the first step is to accept it as a fact. And you can't really go wrong with that assumption, right? Because then you're meeting more needs, as opposed to assuming most of your students know how to read or don't struggle. So I think there's a lot to be contemplated there. Thank you for bringing that up.
Donell Pons:Yeah. And so I've also got a little something I want to say, because I kind of hesitated over the words, just as I was having this conversation, there's been some discussion, and some may be aware of it and some may not, that we should refer to students who have difficulty with reading, not as struggling readers, but striving readers. And this has come up quite a bit. So this will kind of fall in the conversation, I was stumbling over my own words, because I'm used to using the term struggling. What's interesting, and we can use both, and I'm okay with that here today in our conversation, but I thought it was interesting to bring it up, because I talked to my husband who has dyslexia, I've been open about that. And I said that we're having this kind of moment where people are saying, You shouldn't say struggling, you should say striving. And I said, How do you feel about that. And he thought for a second. And he said, you know, maybe I'm not very good with vocabulary. But when I hear striving, striving is entirely different from what I was doing. Striving means you just need extra help with something, but you got the tools, you got everything you need, you just got to put some extra effort. And that's what striving meant to him. But he said struggling to me to find exactly what I was doing. And that is I didn't know have the tools. I didn't know how to get there. I had nothing I was struggling. There was no moving forward. I was just sitting and suffering. That was really interesting. So I'm sure we'll hear more about this. So I'm not going to hesitate over my words or be cautious. So Lindsay I'm going to toss it back to you. Yeah,
Lindsay Kemeny:my son would totally agree with your husband. And he would say I was struggling. And then so to me, I don't find it. And some people say oh, don't like you're saying Oh, don't say that they're struggling. And I kind of think, okay, but they are there's a lot that are struggling. And you can see that in those NAEP results. And those results are just so disheartening to me, because I have seen firsthand the effect that not being able to read has on your self esteem, or the struggle to learn to read has on your self esteem. And so that's just, I think you guys would agree. It's like why we're doing this. I've seen the difference with my son before he was able to read, the self esteem, his depression. And I saw, you know, him healing, as his reading improved. And so you guys have heard me say it's like the science of reading healed his heart. And I want that for every kid, I want every kid to learn to read, because I think it's just going to change the trajectory of their lives. And truly, truly believe that. So when I hear those results, it's just, it's so sad because I can picture those kids who feel inadequate, who are walking through the hallways of school, just feeling like they're failing every day. They're in this environment where they feel like they're failing, and I want to help them. And so you know, what can I do? Well, I'm going to do the best I can for the students I have. And I'm going to like you said, I'm going to look at the data, I'm going to prepare, I'm gonna get a plan for the year I'm gonna get a plan for the week, I'm gonna get a plan down to the day and for each student, I'm also going to try to lead from where I am, I don't want to leave the classroom right now. I love the classroom. But if I can help if I can speak if I can share on social media, then I hope that I can help other teachers as they're trying to help you know their students to
Donell Pons:totally agree with that. It's great, thank you. Really interesting perspectives. Here's another thought I had. And I think that if we get more comfortable talking about the fact that a lot of students are leaving third grade without the skills they need in order to do what's being asked of them in fourth grade. That's just the bottom line, the statistics don't lie, they tell us that. And then additionally, if you need a narrative to go with it, walk into a classroom and see the kids struggling to perform, right. So we have to have more open conversations about the expectations for a student who goes from third grade into fourth grade. And what supports because I don't hear the accommodation talk until we're really struggling, and it's too late. So we need to be having that conversation much earlier, if a student is leaving third grade, and doesn't have the skills to read and write and perform. at a level that's expected in a fourth grade classroom accommodations are very much appropriate for that student to be able to get through the day feeling like he or she can accomplish the tasks and not feeling overwhelmed. In addition, we do we do help and continue to help the student learn to read and write as we should do. But this gap between helping a student be able to get through the material of the day, without feeling overwhelmed, I'm not going to make it because right there that crucial third to fourth for me I find is Well, like I said, it's crucial. And I find that a lot of students knew early on. And that was the key point they remembered, it didn't matter if later they got services or help whenever I asked them, that's always a question I asked, When did you know that this was going to be trouble, and you felt overwhelmed. And it's typically if the kid didn't notice before, they said third grade, third grade, third grade, because everything shifts, and we know that. So speak to me a little about what you see happening in schools and what we might be able to do coming back in the fall to make sure that we're supporting our students through that whole K through six experience. Right. What do you think, Stacy? I'm gonna start
Stacy Hurst:Do you know, I hope you don't mind this, but I'm with you. actually thinking a little bit beyond sixth grade. Yeah, I feel like in K-6, we have a lot in place to identify those students. I think the younger the grade level, the better those identifiers are. We have screeners such as Acadience or Dibels. There's a lot of assessment related to literacy. Once you leave third grade, that changes, right, then you're assessed on content area, obviously, there are reading assessments that are typically more related to things like reading comprehension, which nobody is saying is not important. But you we know, our students who have not picked up on reading as easily as others can compensate and look okay, on those kinds of assessments, especially when the response opportunities or multiple choice, or, you know, they're those kinds of things in place. So, I'm thinking to myself, identification is the first thing and how do we know how to help a student if we don't know where they're at? So I'm thinking a lot of students who are in content area classes, and that typically happens beyond sixth grade, right? That are specific, you go to science, you go to math, you go to social studies, but how often do teachers have those subjects know? How often are they aware? What information do they have access to, to know that they have a student who appears to be brilliant, has great conversations about the content, but cannot access it through text? And Donel I know, you. You work with students who have been in those environments you taught in that environment? So I guess I'm turning the question back to you. What would you recommend to those teachers? How would they know? And then once they've identified because I think there are a lot of great ways they could find out right, that are respectful to the student. I'm just interested to hear your thoughts on that.
Donell Pons:Yeah, I don't think we have yet done a good job of addressing that third to fourth transition. So again, I'm going to focus there because for a lot of my students, that's where they always go back to whether they're in their 20s, or their 30s. They'll go right back to their third grade to fourth grade year, and I knew it was over. So we have to do a better job. Like you say we have the data we know who is still at a level with reading work, that's going to be challenging, you know it because we have the data, you can pull the data and see that. So we have to do a better job of when that student goes from third to fourth, well, if the fourth grade teachers aren't getting the same information about reading as K through three, what does that tell you about what that student is going to experience in fourth grade? If reading is a challenge, it's not going to be great, because the teachers are not going to be aware of what even a reading difficulty looks like, let alone how do I support somebody with a reading difficulty? So that to me is critical is the information must go beyond third grade about how we learn to read. And in fact, I would say if you're in a classroom too Teaching, you've got to have some understanding of how students rate period these days that the statistics tell us that. So I'm seeing difficulties across schools across districts across states, because that information isn't being shared more widely we focus in and we still think of it as a K through three, difficulty, I K through three challenge. This is what K through three does. But the statistics have been telling us for a long time that this is going across the grades. So in addition to a teacher and teachers in fourth grade, needing to understand what a learning difficulty with reading looks like, and how to support students, not just support, but get the correct instruction for the students. Because here again, we should be as intensely as ever helping students get the skills they need. Okay, what did we not get in third grade, are we continuing the momentum. So that's another thing we throttle that, refocus back on K through three. And we need to continue the momentum, fourth, fifth sixth with just as much intensity, about getting that student to get the skills that he or she needs. And then addition, what I want to see is more accommodations in those fourth, fifth and sixth grades. For students who aren't able to get the assignments done. Writing is still difficult for me the penmanship, what can I do to support that? So the students ideas can be prolific, and they're not being stopped, because there's no way to get them down on the paper, that kind of thing. But spelling is difficult. So I'm not going to write anything, I'll just do idk which I see a lot of students doing Idk? I don't know. And they're using that for every answer when these are students have a lot of bright ideas. We need to stop that and support students there. What do you think, Lindsay?
Lindsay Kemeny:Yeah, I agree with everything you're saying. But it's so important to catch these kids while they're young. Because as you're saying, the older you know, they are in grade level, the less likely it is they're going to have a teacher who understands beginning reading and how to teach that. And that's just like the reality, you know, we have additionally, interventions, phonics, interventions in first grade are twice as effective as they are in third grade, there was just a study I saw about that doesn't mean that it won't work in older grades. Of course it will. But we have a prime time when they're young. So sometimes people say, Oh, don't worry, they'll catch up. But we'll get it. Oh, we don't need to why do we need to rush into things right now we have plenty of time to get them to help. No, we got to prioritize giving them the help when they're young. And so having a good screener is so important. Like Stacy was saying, I use Acadience I love Acadience Looking at that it's valid and reliable. So don't just like wave off the data and be like, well, they're reading their nonsense word fluency wasn't very good. But look, they're reading their words correct per minute was okay. No, you got to look deeper, because that's child's is going to fall through the cracks, because they're probably memorizing words, they're not really connecting the sound with the letters, the graphemes on the page, and we need to catch them and fix it now before it's the third or fourth grade when it's like, oh, they're struggling. Right? So it's just catching them early is key is going to be huge.
Donell Pons:Stacy, what else did you have to say?
Stacy Hurst:I was just gonna say, as you were talking about Danelle, all of the resources seem to be funneled into K-3. And that's why right, we want to take a preventative lens. I started working with an MTSS framework, maybe about 20 years ago. And, you know, you would have hoped that by now, the percentage of students who needed that extra support in grades four plus would be very slim. But that's not the case. So my question is, in the meantime, and we know, teacher knowledge is a big part of that. And teachers are always learning and improving. That's just the nature of our career. But we have teachers coming in and out of the profession, we have administration changes. So how can we put something in place where we can support those students who didn't get as solid of a foundation as they could have? So we still need to account for that. And I'm thinking, Lindsay, you said that, you know, what, if you started teaching fourth or fifth grade, I think you would approach anything differently because of your background in those earlier grades. But I know when we started requiring it was dibbles. At the time, as a state, I was a literacy coach in the first years. And I had a fifth grade teacher who was either teaching fourth or fifth grade, we were going over the data for the first time. And he said to me, you know, this data is really amazing. Every year, you know, I kind of thought that I had one maybe two students who really struggled. But this is telling me something different. Right? So the assumption was, and understandably, on some level, that oh, if you're in fourth or fifth grade, you should be able to read if that's what you were taught, but again, just continuing to inform what supports do we have for teachers in those grade levels? Right. And there For the students that they teach, you know if they're teaching science, and that's what they studied, and that's their degree and how are we supporting them with the students they have that can't access their content area information in ways that we are assuming that can
Narrator:say hello to the new Reading Horizons Discovery, the evidence based foundational literacy program educators asked for with innovative technology to support teachers and students, a complete collection of decodable books, a digital sound wall built in real time coaching and more Reading Horizons, Discovery puts it all together to help K through three students achieve reading proficiency. Now you can take off with a trusted science of reading approach and simple instructional method, it's easy to stay on top of student progress and individual needs with a tech enabled tool and streamline student data. Take action to transform reading challenges into literacy success, go to readinghorizons.com/productguide to download your program overview today.
Lindsay Kemeny:I just have so much respect for so many teachers, because they know there's so many upper grade teachers, they know that they need this and they you know, weren't trained. I mean, even as lower grade teachers didn't have the best, right? But and they're seeking out the information. Just last week in my district, I presented at my district conference, really, you know, thinking I was catering it to k three, but I had some junior high teachers in my session, and I was just like, oh my gosh, you guys, thank you for coming. This is so awesome. And they came up to me afterwards. Okay, so we, you know, when we have these eighth graders that can't read, where do you think we should spend the bulk of our time and I was just so impressed that they were going out of their way to learn that stuff.
Donell Pons:In fact, Lindsay, I'll tell you one better I had a college professor, reach out to me now that's really interesting. And ask Yeah, I mean, you're hungry for it, because they realize I have these really bright students. And it just describes the students to a tee exactly what we're talking about. So you're right, lots of really good educators who know what's going on, it's not that they don't see it, they just weren't getting any the tools to know what to
Stacy Hurst:And I know that in our teacher prep program, we do. have one content area literacy class, I believe. I know when I went through as an elementary ed major, and then a reading specialist with my reading endorsement. I had one content area, reading class, however, they didn't talk about identification, they assumed that everybody that would be sitting in front of you, during science, or social studies, or math would know how to read on an adequate level. And I think of my own students, one of the reading classes I teach, students can take it before they're admitted into the program. The very first assignment I give them is an essay to tell me about five influential books in their lives. And I can tell a lot about them from that some of them more than I would like to admit, say they don't like to read, and they haven't read five books in their life. And these are people who have some interest in becoming teachers. And you have to kind of go back and think, where does that all start? Right? Maybe they were like you were saying Donell struggling as early as third grade. And nobody knew what to do about it.
Donell Pons:And trying to look like they knew what they were doing, because that comes very quickly. Right, Lindsay, you talked about the toll that it takes on someone's self esteem. And that sets in very, very early. I think I've discussed before that my husband knew from preschool going into kindergarten when he was not getting letters. He was building the blocks in preschool kids were falling around, here's the coolest ever look at all the things you can do. Winds up in a kindergarten classroom, unable to get the hang of letters. And he said, I was quickly from the front of the room to the middle of the room to the back of the room. And then I was out in the hall. And I pretty much spent K through fifth grade out in the hall. And that's a story for a lot of students that that's what happens to them because they don't quite know what to do to help the student.
Lindsay Kemeny:I could just add to that because my son, it was in kindergarten, he couldn't verbalize exactly what was going on and why but he would say what is your favorite part of kindergarten and it was going home going home and we laughed at the time we just thought that was funny, but it didn't really sink into a little bit later that no he didn't feel comfortable there. Why? Because he wasn't able to succeed. And I remember in second grade his teachers just saying he just seemed sad all the time. But when it really got bad Donell, which is goes back to you talking about how important the accommodations are like in third grade, and fourth grade. It wasn't third grade that his depression and self esteem really were at its worst because he was really starting to compare himself he really noticed all the other kids get, you know, threes on their paper. I get a one like it was like a rubric right He's like, I get a one on everything. And that's just when it really hit him. Everyone else can do this, but I can't. We're silent reading. And I'm supposed to sit here and read this decodable book, which is embarrassing, while everyone else gets to read Harry Potter or whatever fun, you know, so we really had to say, oh, we need audiobooks here. We're going to practice decodable is at another time, this is the time that he needs access to grade level content. Yeah.
Donell Pons:And you know, it's interesting, Lindsay, you should bring up those things, because those are accommodations that we should be offering early on. So the ear reading, we know we have a lot of data now, that tells us that your reading is very beneficial for students. My son had a vocabulary that was way outside of what he was capable of reading. And that was another indicator, right? Is that this kid? Clearly he can get the material. It's just when it comes to reading and taking the code apart. Oh, dear, that's a challenge. Right? So he was standing right out, it was in blaring lights there. So audiobooks is one and then another that I see happening with students is not allowing them to use some of the technology we have for speech to text. And so we can early on allow a student, we can practice some writing at a point in which it is appropriate. But then when we're doing the assignment, we want long form answer to something, let's allow the student to use a format so that they can give that long response they want to write if they know a lot about a subject. I've had students, many of them will use Google Drive for this because their school didn't have much tech, and I just showed them how to use that in Google Drive. It's very easy. We practiced it a little bit. It's a fourth grader that I was working with. And his response is up to that point hit in a sentence. And the teacher said, Well, I know he knows more than that. And I said, he certainly does. He knows a lot more than that. He can't write it, though. And he's receiving instruction somewhere else for that. But in your classroom, he has performance, what he needs to do is indicate what he knows about this subject. So how are we going to let him be able to do that? We call this up we had him practice the Google Drive. We put a few of the small answers in there for him the here's the question, you need to give a short answer. And he went on and on and on about the subject. In fact, he was very well read. And I said, Fine. We got to put a period on this at some point, young man, but he could have gone on for days about it and was so enthusiastic and very excited about the next question. See, that's the thing, success leads to more success. If you show me that you can give me a leg up, then I might take two because now I know how to do that. And how to often we see a student who's going sinking lower on putting the head down on the desk sinking lower into the chair. And instead of saying, What can I do to help that student feel like maybe they can be successful? I should look at that first it is, well, did they stay up too late? Did they and it's on and on about what that student might be doing instead of what we can provide to help that student be more engaged in the classroom? And I think we're doing do more of that shift is is a good thing to do. Stacy, you had a comment?
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, I was just gonna say I know, some teachers, I've heard these conversations in what I would call upper grades, right? They're hesitant to give them ear reading opportunities, because they think, well, then they're not learning how to read. And my question to them would be, okay, so let's do both. Let's teach them how to decode and give them access to the content. Because background knowledge is such a key factor in comprehension. And we can always build that we build that in preschool before students can even access text or decode. So why not continue to do that and build their ability to accurately read texts. And we know all goes back to this simple view of reading at the same time, so that when they do build those capabilities, then they are understanding what they read that we're not at a double deficit for those students. We can build vocabulary with background knowledge, no matter the format for that, right. In elementary, it's easier. You have a literacy coach, you have a reading specialist, you have a special educator right there speech and language therapy, use those resources as a teacher advocate for your student and make sure they're getting the support they need in that system within that framework. If you're a high school teacher, Donell, I mean, I've had this conversation with high school teachers recently, what do they do, right? And on one hand, like you said, give them access to the content. Let them respond with what they know in different ways other than writing, how else can we help ensure that those students are also building their ability to decode?
Donell Pons:And to be perfectly honest, that's an independent thing by the parents because most high schools that I've been to do not have the resources they don't even consider that to be part of what they do is statistical teaches students to read, they don't recognize, identify, intervene, any of it. And at that point, it's all about how do you get them through. And so high school is obviously Stacy you know, my background, I was involved with a middle and high school situation where we did provide intervention. And so you were getting both, we were helping teachers to know how to accommodate the student in the classroom to be able to get the work done. And we were providing an intervention course as well for the students and seeing some great success. That that's very rare, quite rare. It's usually on the parents, and it was on me to do that for my own son, right. So I was providing that intervention for my son because it wasn't being provided at the school. And that's where we have an equity gap, that huge equity gap. Because if I can't afford that on my own, then what's going to happen for my student, and if we really considered to be a free and fair public education, than we do need to be providing appropriate instruction for students to become the readers they need to be in order to participate in the system that we've set up, right. And so that's really what we're talking about here. And so I hope we have this conversation often, and in many places, right? So I just want to toss in one thing I know, I don't want to start a whole new topic before we end up and I know we've been chatting for a while. But there were some recent headlines about the NAEP data that was collected. And I want to put this out there for you. They were saying that we have some of the biggest gaps. Now this data that they just did round of data, and they're talking about 13 year olds, was the headline. And they were saying that the reading and math scores plunged to the lowest levels for American students, and they're looking at the pandemic. And they're saying all those pandemic years really had an impact. But I think this is a good moment, not just to focus on the pandemic, right? I don't want all of us to say, Oh, it was all the pandemic, we weren't doing well before the pandemic. And so I don't want that to be lost in the conversation as people try to say, oh, it's those pandemic years. But it just emphasized the fact of how we were teetering. We're just been teetering for so long on this precipice of not doing very well and meeting the needs of our students. So I want to ask your thoughts. Just really quickly how you feel about the fact that the data is at its lowest it's been, and that some folks are talking about? It's the pandemic, it's the fact that we had this pandemic? And do you think that that's correct? What do you think, Lindsay?
Lindsay Kemeny:Oh, definitely, I think it's both. I think we had issues before I think, but see the 13 year olds, I think the group that was hit most by COVID, were those ones that were in the primary grades when we didn't have school, but it almost to me, it's like, it doesn't matter. What matters is now okay, whatever the reason, what are we going to do now? And we're talking about back to school here, and let's say, Okay, it's back to school time. Let's make sure our tier one as if you're a teacher, Okay, I gotta have really, really strong tier one. And then we've also been talking about these interventions and accommodations. So you want to start thinking about what interventions am I going to do probably want to look at your beginning of the year data, if you don't have it yet. Look at your interview data from the year before of the students that you're going to have. And then you're also Hey, who's going to need accommodations? What kind of accommodations can I provide in the setting that I'm that I'm teaching in?
Donell Pons:Was that was perfect. That was exactly where I wanted you to go is lean back into what do we need to do what we've known we need to do? We want to call it pandemic want to call it something else? We know that we need to do these things for our students and Stacy, how about you because you're training those teachers who are facing classrooms where apparently we have really low scores even lower? What do you do?
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, and you know, when we were talking about this topic, I was thinking of Anita Archer, and how she always says, if you can expect it, you can pre correct it. And this is probably a time where it benefits us to go to the worst case scenario, really, you know, as a teacher, let's say most of my students can't read, what am I going to do? What am I going to do for that student, picture this scenario, go through every possible option, and then be the person that finds the resources? Right? And I would say that to my students, too, if you have a student who is I will use the word struggling, then where's the very first place you look? Not the student, but yourself as a teacher, right? What can you do to help that student? It's not their fault? As a teacher, what do you do? So I think that would be my suggestion. Talk to other teachers, if you're new, what have they experienced? Anticipate it, try to get ahead of it. And even only if you don't have students that struggle on the level you think they are, you're going to be prepared anyway, you're going to be able to meet the needs of more students with that knowledge. If you are an administrator, and I think I'm lumping instructional coaches in that category, too. How can you support that teacher, right? Like the teacher's main interest is the student obviously and naturally, but as an administrator, I think our number one concern is how to support the teacher in meeting the needs of the students. So as an administrator, ask yourself the same questions at my school? What is the data? How does that compare to what we're seeing nationally? And, regardless, what can I do to improve the literacy at my school, and there are a lot of resources out there today that we didn't have, that are aligned and are gonna have more efficacy than some of the things we were taught to do. So it's not dismal. Right? There's some hope. But it's not going to be easy there.
Donell Pons:Yeah, absolutely. No, I think the message is we have a lot of really good tools, and we just need them in the hands of folks to be aware of them. Right. And so that, to me, is a very hopeful message. Because back in the day, when I started out on my journey with children who have dyslexia, I was having a tough time just getting my hands on information, I'm thrilled with the amount of information that's available. I'm thrilled with the amount of training that's also becoming available for teachers. And it's just making sure that the word gets out there. So folks can take advantage of what is available to them and sharing resources. So it is it is a very positive message. And I think that wraps us up today. So we could go on again, like I say, do we not a part three? I don't know.
Stacy Hurst:There's funny, as you were talking, I knew you were gonna wrap up. And I was thinking, yeah, and think of the technology tools we have available today. Oops, that's a whole other episode. So we're not gonna bring that up, even though I just did. I mean, that might be something we address in the future. Thank you so much for the conversation. And can I just say, I know, we've been at this for lots of episodes now. But I always appreciate our conversations, especially the different perspectives that we come from, and what we share in relationship to those. And I'd like to thank our listeners too, because they also have valuable perspectives and, and are doing such important things to help change this conversation, right. Hopefully, in 10 years, our episode topics will be different, because we will have addressed the needs right? What would they be then? I don't even know. Lindsay Donell, I'd ask you, but do you know? Okay, that's a topic for another time. We'd love to hear from you guys in let's do that utopia. 10 years. Everybody knows how to teach reading. Therefore reading rates are higher, then what do we talk about? I don't know. Either way, thank you all for joining us. And we will see you next time on the next episode of Literacy Talks.
Narrator:Thanks for joining us today for Literacy Talks, the podcast series for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. We hope you'll join the science of reading collective, our free community so you can stay current with the professions newest thinking free webinars, resources and more. Visit literacy talks online for access to all episodes and more at readinghorizons.com/literacytalks. It's an exciting time to teach reading and help all students reach grade level proficiency this school year. Literacy talks comes to you from Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Join us next time