Can We End “the Reading Wars?” Part One of a Four-Part Article Study

Whether you participate in more formal professional learning communities or informal study groups with colleagues, you know the power of sharing and discussing articles and information that are important, thought-provoking, and meaningful. In this episode of Literacy Talks, we launch a four-part conversation centered on the article Ending the Reading Wars: Reading Acquisition From Novice to Expert by Anne Castles, Kathleen Rastle, and Kate Nation. Our hosts will dive deep into this seminal work, discussing why they find it so impactful and why they recommend it to the science of reading enthusiasts and skeptics alike. It’s like a book club meeting and a professional learning experience all rolled into one. The first episode of this mini-series looks at the article’s opening section, including the importance of reading proficiently, the genesis of “the reading wars,” and the authors’ definition of reading along the way. Join the journey and invite your colleagues for a close look at this critical, robust review of how we can truly help all students read proficiently.

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Transcript

Narrator: 0:03

Hello literacy leaders and champions. Welcome to literacy talks, a podcast series for Reading Horizons dedicated to exploring the ideas, trends, insights and practical issues that will help us all improve our professional practice knowledge and confidence in teaching reading. Our host is Stacy Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor at Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education and Lindsay Kemeny, and author and Utah based elementary classroom teacher. With this episode we begin a four part article study an in depth look at the seminal work titled Ending the Reading Wars: Reading Acquisition From Novice to Expert by Castles, Rastle, and Nation. Join us as together we unpack the wealth of knowledge, insight and critical information in this article, we make it accessible, meaningful and memorable. Let's get started.

Stacy Hurst: 1:10

Welcome to this episode of literacy talks, I'm your host Stacy Hurst. I'm joined by Donell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny, where we meet together every week and we talk about literacy. So this episode is no different. Other than we are going to have the first episode of a series of a very important document that, in our humble opinion, was overlooked by some people. So you want to take a deep dive into it. And this is the paper Ending the Reading Wars: Reading Acquisition From Novice to Expert, by Anne Castles, Kathleen Rastle, and Kate Nation, aka Castles, Rastle and Nation, which is just fun to say, because it rhymes. To start off Daniel and Lindsey, what is your experience with this article? Have you heard of it before? Lindsey? Where did you learn about it?

Lindsay Kemeny: 2:04

I can'tremember where I first heard about it. But I've known about it for several years. And when someone asks, you know, a lot of times people are saying, Oh, what's the can you give me an article on the science of reading, or I need to research on the science of reading? This is one that I share with them. And I think anyone that considers themselves a science of reading enthusiast needs to read this article, because it's a pivotal article. And anyone not familiar with the science of reading also really needs to read this article.

Stacy Hurst: 2:38

Yeah, Donell? What about your experience with this article?

Donell Pons: 2:40

First of all, I'm gonna say right out there, if you're not familiar with the article, it's long. So you know, it's very long, and it's fantastic. Yes. And it's in depth. That's why it's so long. But it also made me think about Maryanne Wolf. You know, we all love Maryanne Wolf, and she was talking about, she's done some really great interviews, but one that I heard recently where she was talking about her own reading comprehension, and her attention. And she feels it's been impacted negatively, by getting on and skimming and reading the skim and reading thing that we do these days. And she talked about longing for those days back when she was doing her bachelor's degree and it was in literature and she could wile away her time reading such long tones as Middlemarch and thoroughly enjoyed it. But she said if I even look at Middlemarch today, I kind of cringe thinking, Oh, dear, did I ever enjoy that? And I think that this piece is kind of like that. We're asking people to read a Middlemarch about the science of reading. And we haven't done these kinds of things. We haven't done this kind of rigorous reading in a long time. So what I'm afraid has happened is this great piece that was supposed to be a definitive answer, and is if you read it, well, it's like it. They go all the places say all of the things. But I wonder how many of us are actually getting all the way to the end. And reminds me a lot of what we do today, a lot of we don't get to the end of a lot of things to understand them. Well,

Stacy Hurst: 4:07

great point. And I think in our society today, Maryanne Wolf is big on this too. The way we read is more like skimming, right and scanning rather than taking deep dives into things. And this article is well worth the deep dive. And it is deep. There are a lot of pages, as you mentioned, lots of great information. But one thing that I love is the way that the author's organized this article. So there are three main sections, the introduction, and then three sections to follow. So we will do a series. We're going to start today with the introduction section. So pages one through eight. Again, we'll link this article in the show notes. It's free access, which is another thing these authors did that I think was so important, so anybody can read it. And then as we go through the series of episodes, you'll be able to follow along with this. And I imagine we'll have some lives related to this. So if you're a part of our science of reading collective, then you'll already be made aware of these, these live meetings where we can discuss this, but if not, go to the website, sign up, and you'll get notified. So today, we'll start with, I'll just read from pate parts of the introduction, the very first sentence is powerful. It is learning to read transforms lives. And I think the first time I read this paper, I probably read that and went sure it does, I know. But what do you think about that is the first sentence they chose to lead with? I think that's powerful. It kind of sets up the why. And then they also say Not surprisingly, then, there has been intense public interest for decades in how children learn to read. This interest has often been realized in the form of vociferous arguments over how children should be taught to read. A period of exchange that has become known as the reading wars. So I think that was a really concise definition of the reading wars. Anything to add to that, Lindsay, Donell,

Lindsay Kemeny: 6:23

it's just so sad. This was written in 2018. Right. And so they wrote it to end the reading wars. But as we know, they are still going strong.

Stacy Hurst: 6:36

Yeah. And then just when we think even a battle has been won, right, like, something else comes up on social media,

Donell Pons: 6:45

I thought it was interesting, that first sentence learning to read transforms lives, I think I've written something very similar in some of my journal writings about being the mother of children who have dyslexia. So I think if you understand the power of reading, and what happens when you don't have access to that reading, that sentence really strikes you.

Stacy Hurst: 7:03

Yeah, and I did skip over, they list some of those statistics as well.

Lindsay Kemeny: 7:09

And that I was like, I'm gonna take notes while I'm reading this. And that was my first note was that first sentence. Because it is, and I know, we've shared our stories before, but it is it I do feel like reading transported my son's life, and took him from someone who was so depressed and sad and had, you know, suicidal thoughts to his heart healing because of the ability to read. And as his reading improved, his self esteem improved, and it just like, it just I want to help all children, because I think, like it says, learning to read can transform their lives, and it opens up opportunity for them that wouldn't have been there if they couldn't read.

Stacy Hurst: 7:53

Absolutely, I think as a first grade teacher, that was my whole hope. And aim was to increase the potential that my students had for a transfer transformative lives through reading that they were, they knew how to do that basic skill, right?

Donell Pons: 8:10

Other things I think are interesting that they list and it's rather quickly so you might miss it. But if you live with someone where reading has been difficult, then these are meaningful, the indirect costs are far greater because the failure to attain a satisfactory literacy blocks people from acquiring basic knowledge, such as understanding information about hygiene, diet, or safety. And I'm thinking about the many times that my own husband became the victim of having taken a medication incorrectly because he didn't read the bottle. And I remember him being scolded. And this is, you know, he's a grown man. And he's being scolded by his doctor, how dangerous this is kind of like he's being treated like a child. And it was only after that my husband said to me, he doesn't realize that reading over that bottle, I'm so used to just making my way through life and kind of blunt blundering through things that it doesn't even occur to me how important that moment is to take with the bottle. There's so much that went into why I didn't get that information that's never addressed. We don't even think about that. That's one thing, right? And that just really, I thought was interesting to drive that home right at the beginning of this whole paper.

Stacy Hurst: 9:15

Agreed. And, you know, I think about, on the other hand, I don't know if you guys are are like me, as a proficient reader. I read the fine print on that medication. And a lot of times I ended up not taking it because of the side effects that are listed. But if you don't even have the, the access to that information, you could be having a reaction and not know that that's what it is. And they do list this as well, when they're talking about that it's a major contributor to inequality. And that could be a whole episode on its own and increases the likelihood of poor physical and mental health. Like you guys have mentioned workplace accidents, misuse of medication participation in crime and welfare dependency, all of which have substantial additional social and economic costs. So we're not talking about something that's nice to know. And all of that is to say that is why it's such an important conversation and why these debates have been so vociferous, right? Because no matter what side you're on, we all are in agreement that this is an important skill, and we want people in society to have. So they do mention that over many years, the pendulum has swung between arguments favoring a phonics approach, in which the sounds that letters make are taught explicitly. And a whole language approach, which emphasizes the child's discovery of meaning through experiences in a literacy rich environment. Most famously Goodman characterized reading not as an analytic process, but as a psycho linguistic guessing game in which readers use their knowledge to guess at the meaning of a printed word. The debate around these approaches has played out across the English speaking world. And I do think it's important to note here, that the authors, I think one is Australian one is British and one is American, I think, but I know that they have experienced teaching English in different countries. So we've all if you're listening to this podcast, we've all been impacted by these debates one way or the other. Right. They also kind of give an overview history of the teaching of reading. And I will also say one thing I really appreciate about the organization of this document, is that they talk about the background, the rationale, the knowledge, the research, and then they do not dismiss the application of it. And they heartily address that to how should we be teaching these really important aspects of reading. So Lindsay,

Lindsay Kemeny: 11:59

was just gonna say, and I don't know maybe you're gonna get to this but like one of my favorite parts that kind of made me laugh, is when they're talking about Horace Mann and how he referred to letters as skeleton shaped, bloodless, ghostly apparitions. And he said, It's no wonder that the children look and feel so death-like when compelled to face them, like those terrible letters. That just made me laugh that he actually said that. But, but this kind of plays into this belief that. oh, phonics is so boring and drill and kill. And this was just kind of where it comes from. And it just kind of makes me laugh that, that he called Letters, skeleton shaped, bloodless, ghostly apparition.

Donell Pons: 12:47

And he's got such a vivid description for it. It makes me wonder what his own personal experience was becoming a reader. Right?

Stacy Hurst: 12:55

right. Yeah. Or if he's just trying to flex as a writer there. I don't. Either or, and you know, that Lindsey, I was going to mention that very thing next. And you know, the other thing is that goes back over 200 years ago. Yeah. So when we talk about and I'm thinking too, we're talking about pendulum swings. And the way that pre service teachers are taught to teach reading, depending on where the pendulum is, that is my thought. Like we really are influenced by what we say matters, who we're teaching, who we're talking to about these things matter. It matters, because you may not know anything else, but you believe what somebody tells you right? So

Lindsay Kemeny: 13:37

right like your attitude towards it comes through your students can see that if you think letters and phonics is so boring, and you hate it, your students will pick up on that.

Stacy Hurst: 13:47

Yeah. And to your point, Donell, I mean, Horace Mann made that comment at a time when teaching phonics essentially, was the way that it was being done. Right. So he was reacting to it, I think, in his own way. So they're talking about to that there is a lot of research, however, documenting reading, development, and a large and diverse body of work on the cognitive processes that serves skilled reading in adults, which I think is important is we're talking about the historical context as well. Because we haven't always had knowledge of those cognitive processes. We have technology now. That helps us literally to see what's happening in the brain of readers that Horace Mann and others didn't have access to. What a big difference that makes right? The other thing that they make very efficient mention of is the many meta analyses that have been done on reading. So they talked about, of course, the National Reading Panel in 2000, the United Kingdom, which was 2006 and that's called the Rose Review. And then in Australia, there was a meta analysis. And I hadn't heard of this one before, the Department of Education, Science and training, and that was in 2005, strong consensus around the importance of phonics instruction in the initial stages of learning to read. Yet, that's part of what that debate has become about. The other thing they state strongly is this research has been slow to make inroads into public policy. And part of the reason they call out and I know this is the case in America, the implementation often devolves at the local level, influenced by variations and biases in teacher training. I know I've personally experienced frustration on that level, maybe a school principal or a district makes a decision that, you know, is not in alignment, or what do you do?

Donell Pons: 15:54

I don't think we're getting better. At not doing this, I think we may even be getting worse at doing these kinds of things. Right? Which is really interesting, because that next sentence after all of this, they say the quality and scope of the scientific evidence today means that the reading wars should be over period.

Stacy Hurst: 16:12

Yes, they are not. And it says that too, but strong debate and resistance to using methods based on scientific evidence persists. This is what I love about this paper next day asked the question, why should this be the case? And then they say that there have been two major limitations in the presentations of the scientific evidence that have probably contributed to this in public and professional domains. The first limitation is that although there have been many reviews describing the strength of evidence for phonics instruction, it is more difficult to find accessible tutorial review explaining why phonics works. Any reaction to that?

Lindsay Kemeny: 16:58

I guess it seems weird to me, because, to me, the why is obvious, or it should just be that's how our language was invented, was based on the code or written language, you know, and so I guess I was surprised when I read that.

Stacy Hurst: 17:14

Yeah. And then the authors make the point that the writing system matters, as we'll talk about when we talk about the next in the next episode when we discuss breaking the alphabetic code section. And I think that's true, too. I think if I'm, I mean, this is Child Development one on one. But if you don't have a rationale that you communicate, for asking anybody to do anything, right, you're you're going to have less likelihood of that actually being implemented. So I think the message got out there that phonics is important, or perhaps not why? Why it was so critical. And I know, for example, I wasn't trained in the writing system of our language is a pre service teacher. So that explanation didn't make it to me. Donell.

Donell Pons: 18:01

Yeah, maybe that's the full bodied conversation. So someone's presenting one piece of something or one aspect, and maybe that leans back into the silo of information, and how detrimental that has been, because it really is a message of, you know, continuity, and perhaps that continuity has been lacking in that message because of it.

Stacy Hurst: 18:21

Yeah, well, well said. And then Lindsay, to your point, the authors say that their experience is that once the nature of the writing system has understood, the importance of phonics instruction in the initial stages of learning to read becomes obvious. And I know I've been obviously in the sight of phonics instruction for a long time. But I also think it's obvious that maybe that's an echo chamber, right. Other people may not feel the same way.

Lindsay Kemeny: 18:50

Yeah, go back and think about, okay, when I first started teaching, and I was heavily trained in kind of this whole language theory, I really knew nothing about our written code. I really didn't. And so I guess that makes sense. Now, I feel like I'm so in the thick of it. I'm like, how could you not see this?

Stacy Hurst: 19:09

Once? You know, you know, yeah. Yeah. And I think the way I was taught it was called Word Study, was it we didn't use the word phonics. Yeah. It was very balanced literacy approach. But it was more whole word. So that is one aspect of our writing system, but not the parts that go into that. Right. So I had no idea what a phoneme was, or grapheme, right, it did learn the lingo too. So there are other reason for why the phonics scores may not be over, is it there has not been a full presentation of evidence in a public forum about reading instruction that goes and this is italicized, beyond the use of phonics. What do you have to say about that? Absolutely. This

Lindsay Kemeny: 19:57

is what you see, because everyone says Oh, The Science of reading is about phonics. We've talked that talked about that before. And then we have advocates that, you know, are against the science of reading and they love to say that. Well, I don't believe in the science reading because I believe readings more than phonics. Yeah. So do we, we think the same, but it's the straw man argument that I feel like they really purposefully try to put out there to perpetuate this myth. You know, it's frustrating, but yes, it's more than phonics. And we do need to talk more publicly about the other aspects of reading

Donell Pons: 20:37

that Scarborough's rope, right. And if you're looking at all of Scarborough's rope and breaking out all the strands, that's one of those images, why it's there. Right? It's to help us to see there's more than just one thing. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst: 20:49

it's also the simple view of reading, because this is where all that language comprehension comes in. Right? Yeah. So if they do say to that, reading scientists, teachers in the public know that reading involves more than alphabetic skills. Again, something that seems like that's definitely something we all should be agreeing on. So to your point, Lindsay, when people who are opposed to what we're referring to as the science of free movement, that's what they bring up, say, comprehension doesn't matter. It's not important. And we're saying it's obviously important.

Lindsay Kemeny: 21:25

And it's almost like some of those people want to keep these wars going, or maybe, you know, trying to protect themselves a little bit. They have some skin in the game somehow. So it makes sense to me that the focus a lot has been on phonics, because that's the biggest difference, in my opinion between the whole language theory science of reading, the biggest difference, there is phonics, that's all there is to it. And no one who understands the science of reading thinks it's all about phonics. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst: 21:51

I don't know one person who thinks it's all about phonics, not even like a group, just let alone a group or an entity, one person, I don't know who believes that. The authors also say it's important to understand how children progress beyond that stage with that phase of word recognition, right to language comprehension. They define the goal of reading as being able to understand text, just that's very concise way of putting it. Let's talk about box one, when they talk about what is reading, they say more about it, then. And then they want to know how children achieve this goal. So then they also consider in this paper, how it should best be taught to support its development. So let's look at box one. What is reading? Donell? What stood out to you and that information?

Donell Pons: 22:46

I just really liked how concise it was. Starting with that very important foundational question, what is reading. And then within the box, it has some really great sentences, and it doesn't have a lot there. But it's got a lot to think about. The goal of reading is to understand what has been read. And thus, the goal of reading development must be to develop a system that allows children to construct meaning from print, Couldn't have said it better. Like try it, our review takes a broad perspective on reading development, reflecting on the fact that reading is complex, to set the scene consider the challenges posed by and they have a sentence there for you to think about. So I thought that was really great, because not only does it describe very succinctly what reading is, but then it gives an example for you to think about. So it presents a sentence and it gives you a chance to think about it as a reader. what it is you're being asked to do when you read two sentences together and and the comprehension that comes into it. So that was really fantastic way to approach you could have said so many things in there. But they chose very wisely, to say the least and have you think the most

Stacy Hurst: 23:46

for me, it made them gain even more credibility. In this paper. Sometimes, we have researchers who are communicating research, but the way that they disseminate that information may not be relatable. But when you know that somebody is communicating something that they know a lot about, and they've had a lot of experience with, they can synthesize it in a way that makes most people understand it. Right. So I love that this sentence is you're referring to is Denise was stuck in a jam. She was worried what her boss would say. And so the next question they posit is what needs to happen for us to understand this text. And then they talk about first we have to identify the individual words. And they're talking about things like distinguishing a word such as jam from words that look like jam like jar or ham and then identifying words that might be unfamiliar, such as the name Denise, or analyzing words which appear in a complex form, such as the word worried. If you look at that word, it is interesting the way we pronounce it, compared to the way it spelled it Maybe some people say worried, but I say worried words are the building blocks of comprehension. But it's not just a matter of identifying words, then they talked about their meanings and the context. And then the causal connections that need to be made to understand the first sentence, it gives them an opportunity to to talk about background knowledge, and inference, which is complex skill requires a lot, Lindsay, anything in this table that stood out to you?

Lindsay Kemeny: 25:28

Well, I mean, I love it, too. It's so concise. And yes, that's the whole point of reading is to understand and gain meaning from the text. And this is where we kind of got off track a little bit because some people thought, well, since the end goal is comprehending the text. That's kind of where they started with with the meaning. And later in this article, it gives this great like analogy about like, you hear a skilled concert pianist, and you shouldn't conclude that, oh, put the child in front of a Tchaikovsky score. And then they'll be able to, you know, play. And it's kind of the same with reading. So we can't just hear you go, let's make meaning from text, we have to start by teaching them to code and to actually read in order to get to that meaning and we don't want them just barking at print. And that's what it brings up in this article to that we don't want them barking at print, we wanted to attend to meaning but you've got to focus on the print, you can't just skip that step.

Stacy Hurst: 26:31

Yeah. And I think even in this table, they they put it in exact proportions is what the rest of the paper talks about. That is an essential access point, being able to decode the words, but then you need a lot of other cognitive processes and background knowledge to be able to really make meaning of it. And two, I, I marked that part later on in the paper as well, when they use that analogy. And I think part of the reason it resonated with me, because I remember, as I was trying to make sense of balance literacy, I was looking through the lens of a proficient reader. And so I am the end result, right. But that doesn't mean that's the way I should teach my students. Meaning Yeah, I would love to have a day where I just read whatever I want, maybe in my pajamas, maybe with good snacks. But that's not going to help my students be able to access texts unless I'm also backing up and thinking about what happens in the brain. For me to be able to learn to read. My students are always surprised when I start my very first reading class by saying do you think reading is natural. And of course, they're going to be teachers. So most of them agree that it is comes naturally like speaking. And they're kind of surprised to know that it doesn't. But once you get into it, and they see Oh, it doesn't, we need to understand more about that, right? So we can teach in the best way.

Narrator: 27:58

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Donell Pons: 28:58

And you know, talking about this kind of breaking things down having an understanding of how you access, you have to be able to understand those words. And even just looking at how the word is being used in a sentence, other uses of that word, and there's just so much even looking at the word right. And it made me think of when I was you know, it's been years ago now, but I'm not going to date myself by saying when, but it was a summer project with my children. And I think I've told people before that we would do would pick a book or something and we would talk about it and discuss. And we were taking apart sentences. That was one of the things we were discussing is taking apart sentences. And I had sticky notes and they were different colors. And we were using the different colors to represent different parts of speech. And I had a big old picture window in my kitchen and we use the window to move these things around and have the different sentences and so we kind of made it interactive. And this was up there for you know, probably two or three weeks as we were messing around with these sentences and taking words apart and sentences and it was really interesting, but I had neighbors that were driving by and I I get asked probably four or five times a week by different people in the neighborhood, what is it you're doing at your house with those sticky notes? I thought that was really interesting. First of curiosity about the sticky notes. But the minute that I said, Oh, we're taking sentences apart, you would think that people would just go, Okay, well, whatever. No, that was the inroad to, can you tell me what it is you're doing? What exactly is it that you're teaching your kids? Well, what are you learning about sentences? You know, it was from desperation to curiosity, the whole spectrum. But it was clear to parents, these are individuals who also had their own homes and their own children. It was clear to them that they were thinking whatever you're doing with your children, I think my children need it, too. So there's also this sense within people that they know that there's more to it, and they're probably not getting everything they need. And I think that's interesting.

Stacy Hurst: 30:46

Yeah. Lindsay, can you imagine being raised with a mom like Daniel that did that? No,

Lindsay Kemeny: 30:53

she makes me guilty.

Stacy Hurst: 30:55

Well, I'm just thinking, wow,

Lindsay Kemeny: 30:58

I get some sticky notes. And we got to pull apart sentences.

Donell Pons: 31:06

Funny part is my married son said, when I bring my kids to your house, mom, they're gonna have to bring it back. That's fun.

Stacy Hurst: 31:14

will cover this, and we could talk about the next in the next episode. But that is another myth that phonics is not fun, or this kind of instruction is not fun. It absolutely is. And to me, that sounds like fun. I mean, no shade on my own mother, I was surrounded by books, we had books. Okay, I was read to, but there was no sentence analyzing.

Donell Pons: 31:39

But it really speaks to that thing about we know, there's so much to it. And that sense that can you show me whatever it is you're doing? Because I'm pretty sure I'm not getting everything? Right.

Stacy Hurst: 31:48

Yeah. Which is how they sum up that table. Even a straightforward two sentence text has the potential to require a range of mental operations, ranging from word recognition, to an appreciation of the theory of mind. So the challenge facing the beginning reader is substantial, is what they say. And I would take that one step further to say this challenge of a teacher is substantial, right? Once you understand all these processes, though, it makes it easy. So just as a teaser for parts to go forward, they again, they outline that they have organized this paper in three parts. The first part, they talk about why cracking the alphabetic code is so central, to learning to read, they sum it up by saying the writing system matters. In the second part, they move beyond the alphabetic skills, and their central message. And that part is how to build fluency, right automatic word recognition. And they synthesize that by saying experience matters, including print exposure. And then in the final section, which was honestly one of my favorites to read, because another great thing about this article, the the references alone, are pages long. And to me, you could go down a rabbit hole, and I found so much research in that area. Some of them I was familiar with, some that I wasn't. And I looked up those articles. And the only way that final section they really talk about what we would put in simple terms is the language comprehension piece of this simple view of reading and the upper strands of Scarborough's reading rope, that they talk about those linguistic and cognitive processes in addition to knowledge of the writing system and how they work together to create meaning. So they conclude that introduction by saying Our aim is to provide our readers with the scientific background, they need to promote the best practices in the classroom, and to minimize the proportion of children who struggle with reading as a result of non optimal teaching, or instructional casualties. I like that term non optimal teaching, any reactions to that

Lindsay Kemeny: 34:07

their mission is our mission. Right? That's what we want. Each of us as individuals. That's what we want with our podcast. We want to promote best practice in the classroom. We want less students to struggle with reading, we want more proficient readers.

Stacy Hurst: 34:22

Yep, definitely shared mission and vision there. Donell closing thoughts on this first section?

Donell Pons: 34:29

Yeah, I mean, obviously, I thoroughly enjoyed it. And just another shout out to the fact that I would have this in a format that you find comfortable to read and whether that's online or whether you print it out, and you want to make notes in the margin and underline a few things highlight. But this is the other thing too about this is likely we've already talked about it, but it's an opportunity to for the individual who's going to approach this text to think about the best way that they want to approach this text. So what works for me, knowing that it's a lengthy piece and what will provide, you know, the best experience that I'm going to have. So it also is an opportunity for us to think about our own reading experiences, and how we get the most out of something that we're reading when it's important.

Stacy Hurst: 35:10

Yeah, and to set our own goals for that. And I think the way that our podcast is formed, we all are in different aspects of the literacy instruction right now. And I think, for me, of course, I'm going to be looking at this, how can I best disseminate, make sure that my students understand this information have access to what's important, so they can apply it in meaningful ways. Lindsay, I don't want to speak for you. But I'm sure you're going to be looking at it to build your knowledge, but also to inform your practice in first grade. And then Donell. Obviously, the same thing, right, I guess we all have the same goal, to increase our knowledge and to improve our practice. The authors are clear in their conclusion to saying that we've had this information for a long time, but their hope is that this paper will contribute to ending these wars. So a further examination of the status of this debate in 15 years won't be required, again, that we will have settled things I will mention to as another like, I don't know if you call this a teaser, and it seems weird to use that term when you're talking about research papers. But I also love that they talk about throughout the course of this this paper, as we'll see in our next episode, that they talk about what the research says. And they also address what we don't know. They also make some claims about we believe this and I think that that's really important to notice as we go through and read some of the things resonated with me and others gave me that moment of cognitive dissonance. So I am looking forward to a further conversation about this or next episode, we will be covering pages eight through 16 Cracking the alphabetic code, where we talk about things like the alphabetic principle, and phonics and sight words and decodable books, so lots of applicable things and as well as fascinating information and research. So thank you, Lindsay. Thank you Donell. As always, I love that I have people to talk about these things with so grateful for you too. And for all of you who listen, so we will see you next time on the next episode of literacy talks.

Narrator: 37:30

Thanks for joining us today for literacy talks, the podcast series for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. We invite you to join the science of reading collective, our free community and resource hub so you can stay current with new ideas, free webinars, resources and more. And be sure to visit literacy talks online for resources, access to every season's episodes and more at reading horizons.com/literacy talks. It's an exciting time to teach reading and ensure your students reach grade level proficiency this school year. Literacy talks comes to you from Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Join us next time