All the Buzz from Plain Talk About Literacy and Learning 2024

Whether you attended the Plain Talk 2024 Conference or wish you did, this episode is a whirlwind wrap-up of the event. From our hosts’ responses to several keynote presentations to quick summaries of the breakout sessions that made an impact, you’ll get the inside story about how the literacy community embraces science of reading instruction. You’ll also hear about new research and how this data can impact educators’ practice. From great takeaway phrases like “We need a call to curiosity…” to “One caring adult makes all the difference…” you’ll get post-conference perspectives that will fuel your professional learning. So sit back and enjoy an auditory field trip to #PlainTalkNOLA 2024.

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Transcript

Narrator: 0:04

Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Brought to you by Reading Horizons Literacy Talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights and practical strategies that will help all learners retreating proficiency. Our series host is Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor for Reading Horizons. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education. And Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author and speaker. This episode is a whirlwind wrap up of the 2024 Plain Talk conference from our hosts favorite sessions, the findings from new research and critical action steps for making literacy progress. It's like being there without ever having to pack your suitcase. Let's get started.

Stacy Hurst: 1:05

Welcome to this episode of literacy talks, I'm Stacy Hurst. And I'm joined by Lindsay Kemeny and Donell Pons. And today, we are just returning from the plane talk conference. And Lindsay, I'm gonna let you lead our discussion, because I think we're going to talk about it.

Lindsay Kemeny: 1:24

Yes. So much fun. We all just got back from New Orleans. And we had a great time at the plane talk about Literacy and Learning Conference, which is put on every year by the Center for literacy and learning. And it's just one of the biggest conferences grounded in the science of reading, and we loved it. And let's talk about like some overall observations. First, there were a lot of attendees, we had 2700 attendees, which I think some about the same as last year. But if you listen to our podcast last year, we were talking about we there were some issues with such a big so many attendees, but this year seem to run a little smoother. Didn't you guys think?

Donell Pons: 2:08

Yeah, I definitely thought so. Even though like you say the crowd was no smaller for sure. In fact, there might have even been a few more people. But it just felt like they were prepared this time for what that would look and feel like to have that many people.

Stacy Hurst: 2:20

Yeah, it didn't feel crowded like it did last year. And logistically, I thought they managed it really well. So they had us kind of sign up for sessions ahead of time. And you weren't really committed to those like you could change them. But when you went to change them what I liked in the app, you could see how full a session was or not. So you knew if you had a chance of getting in, and then they scanned your badges. I think another big thing, making it seem like really mobile was that they moved all of the vendors into one spot. Like it wasn't all in the hallways, taking up space. I thought people moved around really well this time.

Lindsay Kemeny: 2:59

Yeah, me too, so much better. And yeah, I loved having the vendors up there. Because before it would just get so congested in the hallways. And I was worried about the whole check in thing where you had to, you know, sign up for your class on the app beforehand. And then I just thought it's gonna take forever to go into each session if they have to scan our badges, but it really didn't. It was fast. It was great. You could switch if you needed unless the session was full, some of the sessions were full. And it was also it felt good. Because you're like, No, I know there should be a spot for me in there because I registered. So that was awesome. And they had the paper programs still. So if you listen to our podcast last year, I was complaining because I'm like, you know, I know it's the 21st century. But I still like my paper program. I want to start the sessions, I want to mark other ones I'm interested in. And they did like little mini paper ones, which I was out because I'm such a dinosaur sometimes when it comes to technology. So that's good. So let's start let's talk about your favorite part of the conference. We're going to start we're going to do your favorite part. And then your least favorite part. So let's start with your favorite part of the conference. Donell, how about we start with you.

Donell Pons: 4:16

But it's tough, because there were a lot of really good things that you could remark on this year. But for me, I think I really enjoy the research sessions. There's enough of that still at this conference where people are presenting on either their own research or they're looking at they're doing a meta, you know, overlook of something. And they're walking you through how they arrive at certain understandings. And I still find that very, very valuable. It was interesting because I think I remarked on Linnea Ehri reading her presentation, which was new from me, and that thankfully Stacy was in the session at the time is the first time I've seen her present, I guess, firsthand. It's kind of interesting. I hadn't thought about that before because I'm so familiar with the research that Stacy reassured me and said no, hang in there and she was absolutely right, it was well worth attending. Because she just takes you very clearly and methodically through the research. And perhaps that's why the reading, she does the reading is to make sure that she's just very carefully stating exactly what she's setting it up so that you have good understanding. Anyway, I really appreciated that. So I love those sessions. They were good. Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny: 5:20

she's such a legend. So it's neat that she Okay, Stacy, what's your favorite part?

Stacy Hurst: 5:24

Well, I think that is my favorite part, though. We had so many people there that we've learned a lot from over the years. And they love being there. I could tell. And speaking of Dr. Ehri, we talked about this on our live, she kind of demonstrated why we have a gap between research and practice, I think. Because on one level, her presentation was, I don't know, can we use the word dry, but the content wasn't the content was so robust and fascinating. But I loved that she was engaged. She was in another session that the three of us were in with Devin Kearns, and she was taking notes. Like she's not a passive attendee right. She's engaged. So I really liked the opportunity to see these people firsthand, and to hear them in person, and responding to questions. And I think that's my favorite part, in addition to seeing people that we know, right, that we don't always see in real life that we see over zoom frequently, but I really appreciated that aspect of it. What about you, Lindsay? I'm so

Lindsay Kemeny: 6:31

lots of things I loved because you guys know, I was all excited about the conference. And I just like, we all are learners. So it's so fun to go listen, but the thing that really stands out to me is that was the book signing, so that the Institute for multisensory education, hosted booksigning for me of seven mighty moves. And I thought that was so nice of them. And it was just like, lovely. There were a lot of people that attended, and it was so fun getting to chat and talk to people. And whenever there's something like that you're always a little nervous, like, will people show up? You know, will there be people there. And so it was just wonderful, because there were a lot of people there great turnout, and like, a lot of great conversations was great connecting with me. So that was definitely the highlight for me. What about least favorite part?

Donell Pons: 7:22

I think for me, it's hit or miss on the keynote every day. I thought that was kind of that's a tough one. I think. And I think the keynote space is really tough. You're gonna hit just the right note, you've got a lot of different backgrounds there. It's 8am, especially by day two, and day three 8am. Is is early.

Lindsay Kemeny: 7:41

And it's like seven our time, right? Yeah, it's

Donell Pons: 7:44

like 7am our time. And it's typically for me, because we're all in the big room. It's too loud. Usually I've complained of this before, it's usually too loud. And I get that because the room is huge. And so they feel it has to be loud. The keynotes. That being said, first day, I think he struck a really nice note, the individual that gave our keynote on Wednesday. And it was great. It was in the Grand Ballroom, and it was motivating teachers to motivate students. Let's talk about belief. I think he did a really good job with it. John Hodge, he has some really interesting stories. Second day, I don't know it was a little bit iffy. For me. It was John Hattie from Australia. I'm not really terribly familiar with his work. So it was kind of new for me. And he was saying some things that every now and then you'd go, oh, oh, well, that's interesting. So I'd be interested to see what other people thought about that. Okay,

Lindsay Kemeny: 8:36

so let's, let's talk about that for a minute. And then Stacy, we'll come back and talk about your least favorite part. Okay, but let's talk about that. So do you want it? Do you remember some of the specific things John Hattie said that had you question.

Donell Pons: 8:51

I promised I wasn't going to hold on to them. So I shan't. But I just remember that there were some moments where I thought to myself, be careful, because he sounded quite whole language, in a way at a conference about the science of reading, which I thought was interesting. So

Lindsay Kemeny: 9:11

I was sitting there to Donell. And we both kind of looked at each other a couple of times, like, Oh, my goodness, he's said some things about dyslexia. Like, he doesn't like the term or something kind of looked at each other. Like what because you guys know if you hear our podcast that the term dyslexia means a lot to us, and both started important journeys in our lives, right. Great. Yeah. And then he kind of was saying some things about Mari clay. And that also, like we kind of looked at each other, like, is anyone else hearing what he just said, but he had a lot of other great things to say too, and it was I was excited to hear him because he's also big name. And I took a picture of one of his slides. I really liked that he was Talking about the difference between a teacher with low expectations, and a teacher with high expectations. And he has the slide that I took a picture of, and I shared it on Twitter. And it went like, wow, it kind of went viral where I was like, Oh, I wasn't expecting so many people to engage with a slide and talk about it. And there were both people praising the slide. And there were people like, there are some problems here. He's making a big leap from the research to what he's saying here. And I think, so I'll tell you one of the things on the slides, and you guys can just let me know what you think. So he has this column with teachers with low expectations. And it's like different things they do. And on the side, on the left with the teacher with low expectations, it says, has more differentiated activities in class. And then on the other side, the teacher with high expectations has less differentiated activities in class. So what do you think about that? What does he mean by that? Do you agree?

Stacy Hurst: 11:08

Did he elaborate on that point in the keynote? Not a lot? Well, that is something to think about. It does provide a little cognitive dissonance, right? On one hand, it makes sense. But I don't know. That's, that is curious.

Lindsay Kemeny: 11:22

Yeah, what came to my mind is that sometimes if we expect less of a student, and we're maybe giving them like a simpler paper, we're expecting them to do less, instead of helping them rise to the occasion, maybe, where let's say we have a complex text, but we're like, oh, this child can't read it. Let's give them an easier one. But then what they're missing out on the vocabulary and the more complex ideas that might be in that text. So what I was thinking, is that, how can we provide more scaffolds to help the students achieve, you know, the harder activity or the harder text? Are there things we can do?

Stacy Hurst: 12:05

A scaffolding would be differentiation, right? That's why I think for me, it causes a little bit of

Lindsay Kemeny: 12:11

pause. So now, what were you gonna say?

Donell Pons: 12:14

I was just going to say that, I wouldn't want it. I think if he clarified on the slide, it's not a differentiated opportunity. But we might differentiate how we scaffold or instruct to that opportunity. So I think that if you're an educator, you understand that that speaks to you that resonates with you, that I have an expectation for all of my students to be able to participate in a certain activity or be able to have a text of a certain quality. But I might differentiate how those students get to that experience.

Stacy Hurst: 12:47

And I think the subtext there, too, is the confidence a teacher has in their own instruction, as well. You can have high expectations if you're confident in what you're providing your students with. Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny: 12:59

some other differences, if you're interested on that slide. A teacher with low expectations, he says sees great differences between the students in the class versus a teacher with high expectations, seeds, lower differences between students in class, a teacher with low expectations, argues that some are expected to improve versus if you have high expectations, all are expected to improve. And it's really interesting, because someone on Twitter had said like something about that this was silly that all teachers have high expectations. And I was really surprised to see that comment. Because my experience, I have not seen that. And I have experienced, you know, a lot that do have low expectations where I'm being told not to expect a lot from a certain student. And so, for me, having high expectations has been so important, and also with my son, because originally, before I really understood dyslexia, I had low expectations for my son when he was first diagnosed, I thought, oh, my gosh, does that mean he won't be able to read, you know, or he won't be able to read at a certain level. And so it took me learning and a lot of growing to understand No, I can still have high expectations for my son. And that made all the difference, because then guess what, he rose to my expectations and even exceeded them. So I just think I don't think that's something that we take for granted. I think that is an important point that we can have high expectations for our students. So I really liked that he was talking about that.

Stacy Hurst: 14:28

Yeah, I appreciate this discussion. I'm sure there will be other people hearing this that will continue it. But I am thinking too often, just developmentally I know this, we underestimate little kids. We underestimate what they're capable of when you think of how much they're learning and what their brain is doing, especially during that window. We talked about that is so vital for literacy instruction. Really, we're we're helping create those upper limits with our expectations.

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Donell Pons: 15:49

And just to add a little bit to you know, what we've all been saying about John Hattie, in his comments, and he did have some, as you say, Lindsey, some good things to say some good thoughts as well, were in there things that obviously gave us pause for thought, right, we were thinking about it. But additionally, I think it also emphasized to me how careful I have to be in this space, and make sure that when I speak to these things, I'm clear. And I have to be very clear. Because as someone who's been in this space, if you're not clear, people make assumptions, people can also fill in with what their understanding is, and maybe they have half an understanding or a partial understanding of something. And so that's why being clear is so important, I think, and I and I know that I have benefited, as I've had greater understanding to be very clear about what it is that I'm saying, particularly say, with dyslexia. When I talk about diagnosis, I'm very careful to say the benefits that come from having a diagnosis. But also there are challenges. And I get that because you talked about labels, and it was a fairly, you know, kind of derogatory sort of sense towards labels, but dyslexia and having a diagnosis of dyslexia for someone who has challenges that go beyond just reading to, and you can have reading challenges with dyslexia. And remember, it's on a scale of mild, moderate to severe. And so there are people that very much would benefit from knowing I have dyslexia, and here's how it's gonna present in other areas, I may face other challenges, my son was one of those individuals, having that knowledge has been a game changer. So I think we have to be careful, right? Just to make sure that Oh, as I speak to these things that I'm being clear about what it is, I'm saying, Yeah,

Stacy Hurst: 17:24

and I think along with that, we have some times as teachers, some preconceived notions about other aspects of things that affect learning, like socioeconomic status, or home life, those kinds of things, that we, we'd start lowering expectations, but even research supports, that those things don't need to be the cause of low expectations, they can be overcome. And with good instruction, most students between 95 and 98% can learn to read. I

Lindsay Kemeny: 17:58

also like because you're talking about the keynotes. The the other the first one, John Hodge, something he said, it was kind of the focus of his whole presentation where he said that the entire trajectory of a child's life can be changed for the better by one caring adults, is really neat to hear his experiences of him and his, like the eight of them eight best friends from elementary school, and he kind of showed what happened with you know, four of the friends very successful lives. The other four is, you know, the opposite where I think there were a couple in jail, and I can't remember all the things and he revealed that the four who are successful, he was saying, we all went to the same school, but the four that were successful had the same teacher, and the other four were in a different class. So very interesting. So his whole kind of point was these relationships that we can have with our students. And so it was a it was a great message. Let's Okay, so Stacy, let's come back to you because we didn't get to your least favorite part of the conference.

Stacy Hurst: 19:09

You know, I am racking my brain in you guys know this, like, as we were heading to the conference, and even day one, I just kind of, I was like, Oh, is this really worth going again, and if I'm being 100% Honest, wasn't totally looking forward to it like you were Lindsay. It did not disappoint. And I really was pleasantly surprised by that. So I'm hard pressed to come up with something that I didn't like about it. Okay,

Lindsay Kemeny: 19:36

well, I definitely have a least favorite part. So I was so excited and honored to be able to speak twice at the conference on the first day so I was kind of happy. I was also on the first day because then I could just relax afterwards. My first presentation went great. And my second presentation, my laptop died in the middle of my presentation so that was definitely a low point for me. And everyone was so nice that came because they're like, Oh, you have the loot so well. But really, I feel like I did it because I was so panicked. And it's really ironic because the whole time before I spoke, people ask if I'm nervous, and I was always like, Oh, I always just get nervous about the tech. I'm always nervous about the tech and just make sure everything works well. And so there you go, what didn't work? Well, it was the tech. The computer died. And I was like, I literally told everyone I'm like, This is literally my nightmare right now in front of all of you. But yeah, it was, it was really nice. I ran into Jen Hasbrouck afterwards, and she was like, and I was telling her about it. And I'm just like, you know, lamenting over it. And she's like, Listen, you do this, as long as I have, like, every single thing has happened. Any imaginable thing that can go wrong, has gone wrong for me. And it's a learning experience. So she was like now you know, just print out your slides and have them with you, you know, just in case something like that happens. And I thought that is great advice. So I'm taking it as a learning experience. Let's talk about some favorite sessions. So Donell, do you have a favorite session?

Donell Pons: 21:15

Oh goodness, I think I've talked about a few of them that I definitely talked to Linnea. Ehri, and going over her research, but then also Devin Kearns, and I think we all have something to say about that. And that was very good as well. Yeah, he did an excellent job. And again, it's a little bit of research. You know, it's a little bit of on the ground. That's what I think is really enjoyable about what he says. He also got into dyslexia. So he covers a wide range of topics within discussing reading. Yes.

Lindsay Kemeny: 21:50

Okay. That was one of my favorites. Sessions, too. I was so excited. I don't think I've heard Devin Kearns in person before. And some things I love, he has a sister with dyslexia, that's really kind of what got him interested. And some things I thought were really interesting. He talked about some of those students, he was talking about different causes of, you know, word recognition difficulties, right, dyslexia being one of them, he was also talking about students with attention problems, you know, and he said, it's like, they've never been in school. It's like, they've never been in school, because they can't focus. And so that's the cause of her reading difficulties. And I just, like every teacher out there is like, Oh, my goodness, I can relate with that, you know, because there's definitely those students that have such a hard time paying attention. So they're missing that instruction. And especially I think, for some of them in that whole group, you know, it's a matter of, Oh, I gotta get their attention so that they can learn this content. So and then something else he said was that our instruction needs to be good, or students will have that word reading difficulty. So we want to make sure we're using that good, explicit, interactive, systematic instruction to help prevent those issues. One

Donell Pons: 23:11

thing Devon did do that I thought was really interesting, because I've been thinking about it quite a bit with all the legislative movements that we've been having across the country looking to make a real difference in our reading scores. Let's really change reading, let's turn this around. And I've been thinking about how we really looked at the data to have a good understanding of what it's going to take to turn it around. And Devin, I thought he did a really good job. I mean, the whole presentation was very good. But that piece stood out to me, because he took the data, we just did a quick run of some data, reading scores, and said, Okay, let's use the simple view of reading. And let's see if we can't figure out where the students fit. So he does, you know, on the chart, he shows you where that might work. And then there's a whole T section in the middle where these kids don't fit into any of this. So what do we do for them? And that was very powerful to me, because that's something I've been thinking a lot about, is what it will take to turn this around reading scores.

Stacy Hurst: 24:03

But he did say to just very clearly he was outlining six reasons that we can assess for why those students in the middle aren't making that progress. But when he showed that plot chart, it was like, that's our NAEP data right there. That's what it looks like. And so yeah, he is very knowledgeable. But one of my favorite things about Devin Kearns is not only the way he thinks, but he identifies at his core as a teacher. And he and I are in the same positions. We're both teaching at a university level. And that's teaching that's still teaching, right? But I think I relate to that part of him because in my heart, I'm still a first grade teacher like, and you can tell that from him. And the way that he communicates this information is very practical, too. So yeah, it was one of my favorites, and he never disappoints.

Lindsay Kemeny: 24:58

Any other sessions. That's found out that you enjoyed or that you learn something new or anything else that you want to share.

Stacy Hurst: 25:06

I honestly felt like every session I went to, I just thoroughly enjoyed and some of it was not new information. But you just get that one insight that makes the world of difference about how I'm teaching it or the way I'm thinking about something. I really appreciated Carolyn Strom session, she always does such a good job of translating what's happening in the brain to application. And she gave, I think a lot of people a lot of things to think about, but also a way to apply it to, sorry, recommend, anytime somebody can hear from her. They're just and Maryanne wolf was there, too. She's always so animated, and passionate. And I love that I mentioned this in our live. But she said bringing together science and story through deep reading was kind of her goal in life. And I really appreciated that

Donell Pons: 26:02

there was something that happened on the plane ride back, that was really interesting. Because again, it's something I've been thinking about with these conferences, I sat by a principal of an elementary school that happened to be in a state where we live, her first plane talk, she thoroughly enjoyed it, you could tell she had had a great time, she talked about very interesting pieces that she had picked up. So that was really great. She was obviously very engaged with the information. But she said something that I thought a lot about thought about it prior to going and I think about it while I'm at the conference, she said, Now, the job of how do I break this down and share it in the best way? That is a big task. That

Stacy Hurst: 26:42

is that's huge. And we did talk about this too. There are a lot of administrators that attend plain talk, whether they're administrators like the principal or district people, or their literacy coaches, lots of literacy coaches there too. So I think that does become the challenge. And I could mention too, we had the three of us had this conversation, because there were a lot of people from the district. I work in that were there. And I did wonder, what's the so what, you know that what are they going to do with this information? How are they going to disseminate it? And I know many of them, they're going to do a great job at that. But it does make you think about that. When you see all the people attending?

Lindsay Kemeny: 27:25

Well, it's easy to get overwhelmed. And even you know, I'm in the classroom. So very much. It's like teacher level for me. So I can get overwhelmed thinking, oh, all these ideas. What am I going to do on Monday? How am I going to perfect this? How am I going to get better at this? And so yeah, I can imagine at the administrator level being like, Okay, here's all these things. Now what now, what do we do, and we need like some action steps.

Stacy Hurst: 27:52

You know, what I, one of my favorite parts of the conference is the summit that we had for the professors of higher ed, after the conference is over. And Stephanie stellar shared with us, she's working with a parish in Louisiana. And she gave a really solid example of some leaders who their first step was actually saying to their teachers, we got it wrong. When we were teaching you to do these other things, we got it wrong. And I think that's a good first step to take, maybe acknowledge, we need to make some changes. And now we know more about what we should be doing. You know, we say it all the time, when we know better, we do better. But to your point, Lindsay in case you're feeling overwhelmed, that might be a first step, just to be aware, right? In my mind, I took away I really need to do a good job of making sure my students, which currently are pre service teachers know how to access research. So they know that yes, and things I'm teaching you today we're going to learn more about and that's going to be refined. And I don't want you to get stuck in what you're learning here. So we can always grow our practice. So one step at a time, I guess, right?

Lindsay Kemeny: 29:09

Yeah, that's great. And I love that set your egos aside what, you know, what a great example for you know, that they said, they're going to do that, you know, coming from the top, they can do that to admit when they're wrong. And then change course, that's huge. So,

Donell Pons: 29:23

you know, and I got to thinking at this conference, too. It reminded me of attending a classroom with my husband who has dyslexia he went and watched an observation with me of a classroom where a teacher is doing all of the things and mind you there's still some fine tuning to take place, right? She's learning as well. This is new for her fairly new to to implement in this way. And she has some sound that she's work that she's doing, that's new for her, but she's putting all the pieces in place my husband went and observed, we watched. And it was really interesting because with now knowing what he knows, because now he has become a reader having to go through remediation, and lots of years that he has spent doing that to become the reader that he is today. But the first thing He said to me as we stepped outside the classroom, and he got kind of choked up, and I was like, gosh, I didn't know it was that emotional, I kind of waited for a second for him to gather himself. But he said, watching that today, I thought to myself, That's a classroom where I would have become a reader. And that's what it's all about.

Lindsay Kemeny: 30:16

Yeah, that's powerful. Let's, let's all do that. Let's, let's be that classroom where we can build those readers. Let's, you know, be that school leader, that district leader, that coach, that's huge. That's what it's all about. Well, thank

Stacy Hurst: 30:29

you for this discussion today. Lindsay. I always like debriefing because it helps my learning more, and solidifies it. I'm sure it does the same for you, too. And those of you who are listening, thank you for joining us. We wish you could have all been there with us. It reminds me to one thing that Kareem Weaver said in a session Donell and I attended, he said, We need a call to curiosity. And I think even the things that we start with in literacy instruction begin with awareness. Right. So our hope is that making you aware of some of the things that were discussed at the conference will help you to be curious about it. I know I have, I usually walk away with more questions than answers. But that's how we go forward one step at a time, one curiosity at a time. So thank you all for joining us. I will end with saying another favorite part of my conferences, how many people would come up to us and say I love the podcast, and I listened. And so thank you for listening. We really appreciate that, and all that you do for our students. So our hope is that we will be able to have you join us on the next episode of Literacy Talks.

Narrator: 31:41

Thanks for joining us today for Literacy Talks, the podcast series for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. We invite you to join the Science of Reading Collective, our free community and resource hub so you can stay current with new ideas, free webinars, resources and more. And be sure to visit Literacy Talks online for resources, access to every season's episodes and more at readinghorizons.com/literacytalks. It's an exciting time to teach reading and ensure your students reach grade level proficiency this school year. Literacy talks comes to you from Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Join us next time.