Dyslexia is often misunderstood, missed altogether, and surrounded by myths. In this episode of Literacy Talks, our literacy experts revisit the state of dyslexia. From gaps in professionals’ knowledge to challenges in early identification and intervention, we need more and better conversations, bolder advocacy, and strong systemic support. In short, there’s work to do, and this episode will enrich and deepen the path forward.
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Dyslexia is often misunderstood, missed altogether, and surrounded by myths. In this episode of Literacy Talks, our literacy experts revisit the state of dyslexia. From gaps in professionals’ knowledge to challenges in early identification and intervention, we need more and better conversations, bolder advocacy, and strong systemic support. In short, there’s work to do, and this episode will enrich and deepen the path forward.
Subscribe to our Literacy Talks podcast digest and never miss an episode! We’ll send you summaries of every session, links to the resources discussed on each show, and some extra goodies so that your learning never stops.
Subscribe to our podcast digest.
Download the new Reading Horizons Discovery Product Guide.
Access the show notes.
Read the transcripts.
Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Brought to you by Reading Horizons Literacy Talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights and practical strategies that will help all learners retreating proficiency. Our series host is Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor for Reading Horizons. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education. And Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author and speaker. This episode explores the myths and the misses around dyslexia, from learners of all ages, who may go undiagnosed and unserved to myths about growing out of dyslexia and more. Why does it matter? Early identification and early intervention can make all the difference and using practices from science of reading will help learners with dyslexia become good readers who can thrive in school and beyond. This is must have insight for every educator, parent and student. Let's get started.
Stacy Hurst:Welcome to another episode of Literacy Talks. My name is Stacy Hurst. And I'm joined by Donell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny, where we talk about all things literacy. And today, Donell gets to choose our topic for discussion. So I will not waste any more time Donell, tell us what we're talking about
Donell Pons:Today, we'll be in the true spirit of we're gonna today. just talk, we're gonna have a conversation. And I'm bringing up the subject again, and I've dropped it, you know quite a bit. We've even done some formal episodes on dyslexia. But I'm still, I guess, astounded by the fact that I'm getting more and more phone calls from parents and more and more individuals who are reaching out to me who are college age, finishing high school, and they have dyslexia and no one ever said anything. And the numbers are just, they're not falling on my end, in the upper reaches. And so I kind of wanted to have another conversation and discuss what we think is going on. Do we think we're moving the needle at all on that? And if we don't, why, and it very much is a part of the conversation about the science of reading. So it we should definitely be moving the needle on this, because it is all a part of this thing that we now are moving more in circles of the science of reading, we have more legislation, I think we have more eyes, we have more money. There's definitely more focus on are we teaching reading in the best way possible? Are we following the science and so I guess I'm still a little surprised and astounded that I get as many phone calls as I do meet as many people as I do, who say no one ever said anything to me. And so along those lines, it was at a Scientific America article in December. And the notes, it'll be linked in the show notes December 1 2023. So not that long ago, where someone that we all know from attending many reading conferences is featured in the article, and it's Dr. Tim Odegard. And he talks about his experience with dyslexia. And I remember that I hadn't seen the article yet, but my husband sent it to me who many people know has dyslexia. And my husband sent it to me the link to the article and he said, made me want to cry again. And it was the again part that got me. And so it started a conversation with my husband saying when is this not going to be a thing where people live these existences like and I'll read you a little bit of Tamil regards experience. It's so like my husband's it's so like a lot of folks I hear from they resonate. They have very similar experiences, otherwise really bright folks who very early on realized, wow, this is really different for me, I'm struggling with reading, and no one will do anything because the kid looks like they're doing okay, in a classroom and the kid wants to look okay, so as Tim Odegaard points out, I was working really hard. I was pulling 1am 2am I was memorizing everything, and thank heavens, and he does Tim has a stunning memory. And he was able to fake it a lot. And it's not until he's an adulthood and he's studying dyslexia that it comes up. So conversation, is it where you guys are at Lindsay and you're setting do you hear folks talking more about dyslexia or having an understanding and then Stacy, we'll get to you too. But how about you Lindsay?
Lindsay Kemeny:Short answer? No, I don't. I barely hear about it. i We don't have trainings about it. So it's not surprising to me at all. We do have more trainings focused on early reading, right. Sometimes dyslexia will come up but I would say majority of the time it does not. And I just think the myths of dyslexia are so prevalent. And I just always think, you know, it's funny because you know, we'll have these trainings every year for certain parts of the population, right? Or we're gonna have a training on this thing, or this thing or this. And I just think the percentage of students that possibly have dyslexia is higher than all of these things that we're learning about. But do we have dyslexia training every year? No, we don't.
Donell Pons:And it's interesting, based on your and your training teachers to be teachers, and you are you have a lot of constraints on exactly how much time is allotted to teach the things that the teachers need to know. Tell us what that's like for you in this setting? Well,
Stacy Hurst:you're right, I wish we could have more time dedicated to that, specifically, I'm working on it personally. And speaking of Tim Odegard, my university is going to use some dyslexia modules that he and his colleagues have created. So that will be helpful because it also reinforces the science of reading. But what I see happening in my space is twofold. One, like you said, Donell, I'm still getting students, my own students. When we talk about dyslexia, which is always within the first week or two of class, I try to fold it in wherever I can. They're always saying to me, I have this. And I think I have dyslexia every it's almost every semester. And I had one student last semester very markedly had it. And her profile was what we would expect here where we teach she had an IEP at one point, I was told she grew out of it didn't need it, still had trouble reading, didn't get the help she needed. And then she actually went to a psychologist here on campus who blatantly told her, You don't have dyslexia, you just have a phonological processing issue, and some trouble reading, which we know is dyslexia. So I think he just isn't informed, right? He doesn't know. He's not a neuro Psych. My other thing that I see is that I am talking about it, students are interested in it, I am teaching it, not to the degree I want to, I'll own that. But I think they go into classrooms and into schools, and then they don't hear about it. And they don't see teachers talking about students of their own, that have characteristics of dyslexia. I feel like we made a lot of progress by being able to say dyslexia in our state, but I don't hear it too often. So there might be a gap there in ways that we used to see gaps. While we still do, but we're working on it with applying the science of reading, it could be the case here too. So they don't see an application or an action. I don't know what a school does when they have a student with characteristics of dyslexia. I think they're told oh, we don't treat them any differently. We're just going to teach them with good instruction.
Lindsay Kemeny:Well, part of the problem, I think, is just the word dyslexia. So schools can't diagnose dyslexia, at least here in our state, it has to be a neuro psychologist. And so, so already, you're gonna have a lot of students in the schools that have dyslexia, but they're not going to be diagnosed. And if you're they go through testing in the school, they'll find out oh, they have specific learning disability, but they don't understand that that could be the same thing as dyslexia. Right? So it's gonna be an even smaller percentage of students that actually go and get outside testing, and then get the diagnosis. Additionally, Stacy, your story reminded me of a friend's child here in my county where they took him to a neuropsychologist for testing. And the neuropsychologist said the same thing. Oh, he has a phonological processing deficit, not dyslexia. And we know that that is dyslexia, that is they, they very commonly do have problems with phonological processing. So she came to me telling me, oh, he doesn't have dyslexia. He has this and I was like, That is dyslexia. I said, take him to another neuropsychologist who I knew was knowledgeable about dyslexia, and see what he says, sure enough, he was like, this is dyslexia. I don't see how anyone could see it any other way. So it was just really interesting because they're not going to be diagnosed in the schools. And then not all Neural psychologists are very familiar with it. So that's tricky. And then it just, if there's a teacher that's even comfortable enough to say, oh, like, I know the signs of dyslexia, and I know this child has some characteristics. So that's one thing is if they feel confident enough to say that, and then it's another thing to feel confident enough to tell the parent that, because sometimes I've experienced like, where I'm hesitant to say, I that they have signs of dyslexia because some parents get really upset. So there's just I think there's so many layers here. Like for me, oh, my gosh, as a parent of someone with dyslexia, it was a huge godsend to finally realize this as what it is. But some parents are not like that. And it's really you're navigating so many difficult things on so many different levels.
Donell Pons:Like you guys have just this has been such a great conversation. And I really hope people are, are are taking the time to listen, and then also to think about in their own settings. Because here's another thing, that not all students, as you were saying, you know, Lindsey and Stacy, you both touched on this. There are characteristics of, and there are things that we commonly look for. But like a Tim Odegaard, you can have a Tim Odegaard, who comes on the scene and he's presenting in a certain particular way, in a classroom, he looks and functions in a certain way All looks good. And so you have to go even beyond that to see the other things that can be occurring, right? Because they can be there are lots of signs and different things that occur with a student who has dyslexia. This is the other piece, why is it important that we know this? Well, we've hit on it in the conversation, the instruction, right? It will be if we're doing instruction correctly and appropriately with the science of reading and all that we know in good appropriate best practice instruction, then that really is the best setting for the student who has dyslexia, we know that. But on top of that, they may need additional time with certain things, it's going to be the way in which we approach that student who has dyslexia in order for them to get the kind of help that they need to become a reader. So that's when I get the pushback about well, if I'm doing all the things anyway, why does it matter? Well, because what exactly does that student need, they're not all the same. And then additionally, in Dr. Sally Shaywitz, overcoming dyslexia, she talks about those other things that start to set in very early for a student who has dyslexia and that can be shame that comes very early. And my husband talks about that. In preschool, my husband started to feel that that shame. And he said, I carried it for the rest of my life in any school setting any academic setting, there's immediately when I my feet crossed the threshold, their shame, so much so that he didn't go to parent teacher conferences, because it was a pit in his stomach. He couldn't even get into the school room. But that started early. My husband when I said to him, think about when that first started for you. He said, Oh, it was preschool because they introduced a letter. And I couldn't get it. I mean, well, first introduction of a letter to a sound, and I'm in the back, I am struggling. And it was apparent right there. So these are the pieces why when somebody says, Well, why do we need to know? Well, because early on, there's not just Yes, we're gonna have some challenges with these very particular aspects of learning to read. But it's everything else that goes with it that can co attend. And then additionally, you can have challenges with spoken language, you can have challenges with math, you can have challenges with writing. And sometimes you're statistically at a higher risk for some of those things. So that's why it's important as well to know Stacy, what are you thinking, as you hear us discussing this and hearing about Lindsay talking about her setting and the confusion, the myths?
Stacy Hurst:I'm thinking a lot of things and Danelle, what you just said made me really want to emphasize the importance of early intervention, early identification and intervention I have worked with, in tutoring situations, older students who have dyslexia, and it takes a significant amount of time to help them. Whereas our brains are in such a state where when we're at a certain age, that if they were to receive that intervention at the time, then they could mitigate a lot of the impact that dyslexia would have going forward. So when we're talking about things like misunderstanding myths, and that's dangerous early on, right, or if a student gets even if they get classified as SLD, which I'm not saying is the worst thing because because schools to your point, Lindsay we can diagnose dyslexia, and I would say relatively few, depending on the area you're in, parents have the resources to go get a diagnosis outside of the school. So that makes it even more imperative that we understand how to identify it and address it so that we don't wait until third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade. Never know till they're in college, to be able to say this is what you're struggling with.
Lindsay Kemeny:It's helpful for us to Students, I think that have dyslexia to know the word dyslexia and know that they have it for my son, it automatically puts them in this kind of group, you know, and we go to these dyslexia advocate meetings, right. And there's other kids with dyslexia. And it's neat, because he feels like I belong, I'm part of this. There's other kids out there like me, hey, we're smart. We're not dumb. We, you know, all these other kids have neat abilities and things they can do. And dyslexia doesn't have to make everything terrible in their lives, there's still great things. And it's so fun to see other kids with dyslexia and how they excel in certain areas and everything. And I have a student right now, who has been diagnosed with dyslexia. And it was fun, because we were reading a little book, and in this book, it's about a boy who has dyslexia, the main character, and he can't, can't read up first. And so it's talking about how they go and get testing and then they, you know, figure it out. And so it's really fun. I was setting it up because it doesn't, this is like a decodable book, it doesn't use the word dyslexia. But in the teacher notes, you know, it talks about it. So I set it up, this little boy has in this book has dyslexia, that means that it's harder for him to learn how to read, it's difficult. And the little, you know, boy in my class is like, I have dyslexia, you know, and, okay, guess who was the most excited to read that book? He was because he's kind of reading about his own experience. And I also think it's good for the other kids to hear that and to know that, you know, what, for some kids, learning to read is really easy. It just comes easy. And for other kids, it doesn't, it's, it's hard. And so I just think the term dyslexia, you know, I know some people, you know, parents don't want to label their kids. But for me, I just think it was so beneficial. I
Donell Pons:really appreciate that. Because to Lindsay for us, it was really liberating to finally have the word dyslexia, particularly for my husband, and it took him a while to own the word. He's often talked about how long it took him, even though he knew. And internally he knew after we'd had discussions about it, he said, It took me years to verbalize outwardly I have dyslexia and own it. But once he did, well, was that liberating. And he said, I should have done it years before, obviously. And now he calls himself team dyslexia, right. So you guys have attended many an International Dyslexia conference with my husband, that when he's there, he's meeting his team, right? That's his tribe. Those are his folks. They're the people that he hangs out with, he's very happy to be a part of that group. And again, Lindsay, like you said, you start to identify with the positives of that group, because there are many positives. But when you're alone, you don't know you're struggling, like my husband said, I belong to a group where I felt stupid. That's the group I belong to. That's what I internalized. And it took a long time to move away from that. In fact, I think he would say today, he's still struggling to move away from that, because it's hard to give that up. Stacy you had some thoughts on this, too.
Stacy Hurst:I was just gonna say, Lindsay, as you were talking and getting like, what you said, Donell, having that sense of relief, once you have a diagnosis, the students that I just talked to you about my college students that come to me and say, I think that's what I have, it's usually this, like insight, you can see the relief on their face, they're almost excited to tell me, I think I have dyslexia, because that would help make sense of what they've been experiencing. Right. So I see that too. But I also think that as a teacher, really understanding dyslexia is so empowering. And those of you who've been listening this podcast for awhile know, I am, unlike Donell, and Lindsay, because I don't have a child with dyslexia. And I haven't had that really personal experience with it. So my experience as a first grade teacher, and then a literacy specialist in my school. I always knew about it. But I think that once I really started to understand it, my thinking used to be, it was kind of like an other hood. Oh, they have dyslexia. I don't know what to do about that. So I'm not even going to bring it up. We're not going to talk about it. You know, if somebody did actually have the diagnosis, which was rare. And I think that once you start even just down the road of understanding dyslexia, you realize knowing how to help a dyslexic student, learn how to read will enable you to teach anyone how to read, like it is empowering. And you don't have to be afraid when a student is struggling and you can't figure out why. I think having that language, knowing the characteristics, knowing how to address it is empowering for everybody involved.
Donell Pons:And I think that's a piece that I'm coming to maybe understand better and kind of forming an idea about and that is letting teachers know Why don't you own the year, the space that you teach in and understand that space for someone who has dyslexia, you don't have to own the life spectrum of someone or the lifespan of someone who has dyslexia. But no first grade, no second grade, no third grade, well, if it's fourth, fifth, sixth, whatever, but you don't have to be responsible for the absolute lifespan of someone who has dyslexia. But if I understand my first grade, well, then I will be able to not only spot if it hasn't been spotted, I'll know what to do if it hasn't been done. And then that will give me direction for that time that I have that student, right. And I'll come in and intervene in that way that I can for first grade, I've seen that also for fourth grade, say somebody missed it, K through third, fourth grade, I know my space, well, the student ought to be able to hit these sorts of marks if they're not hitting those marks. I've caught that. Then what's my next step? Where do I go? Who do I talk to? And what do we do to support that student so it gives me kind of a framework to work within the space where I'm comfortable as an educator, because I think sometimes it feels overwhelming. You feel like this big thing, dyslexia, and I've got to know everything about all of it. And you really don't, what you need to know is your space. Well, what do you think, Lindsay? Well,
Lindsay Kemeny:one thing I worry about, because I was just talking about how the dyslexia, that word was so important for my family, and what I see with certain students, but I also have a lot of hesitations with the word and that is like with the teacher, because what I worry about is low expectations. And once they hear the word dyslexia, they're thinking, okay, so it's almost like an excuse, and thinking that this child is not going to become a proficient reader. And, and that's not true. And we still need to have high expectations for these students. And they can still learn to read and they can learn to read well. And so it's just all those myths, you just hear the word dyslexia. And the first thing that comes in people's mind, you know, is, you know, seeing backwards or visual overlays, we even went just last fall in our state, we had a conference, and there's this company, they're talking about dyslexia, selling colored overlays. It's just no research to support that. And dyslexia is not a vision issue. And so, you know, it's just, that's what I think is frustrating. And that's the problem when we hear that word is that there's all these myths out there, or that, like I said, the low expectations, so that's what I think we're up against.
Donell Pons:So I like that Lindsay. And that even fits well into that dough, your space well. So if I know in first grade, that I can intervene in this way, because I understand dyslexia, well, then I know what to do, right. And I have an expectation of being able to meet that for that student, Stacy, you had a thought, too.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah. And for as the teacher, this is something that was empowering to me along those lines, because I just admitted that I felt that way, right. And that was as a literacy coach and a reading specialist. That was me focusing on reading, I can imagine teachers who are teaching all the things and maybe reading isn't their passion, how this would feel to them. But as you learn more about the science of reading, you do learn that treating a dyslexic teaching them does not take anything out of the ordinary that you would be teaching any other child, no matter, the student, our brains need to function in the same way to read. So we can do the same. For our students with dyslexia, yes, it will be highly differentiated in some cases, lots more practice with feedback, very explicit instruction. It's not something drastically different than what you're doing. For most students. It's refining and giving them more time, more feedback, more explicit instruction, and really targeting that for them, generally speaking, and you
Lindsay Kemeny:hit something really important there where they are going to need more practice. And, you know, I can see that with, like, for example, a student I have right now, where, at the beginning of the year, he was doing really great. It seemed like it was easy. He had been reading CVC words for a long time. And he was becoming very proficient at that. But I feel like it's now like, more of a challenge. Because we have added so many things. We're learning our controlled vowels, we're learning vowel teams, we have vowel consonant E, we have digraphs, and blends, all these things that now he has to do as he's reading. It can be a lot. So you know, maybe at the beginning of the year, I didn't think that he needed as extra practice than everyone else. It was really kind of the same. But now he does need extra practice to stay with the other kids. And I was really alarmed when I recently read something where they said students that are below grade level should have less practice, like as a way to differentiate And I was shocked because I'm like, I couldn't disagree more, these students need more so that we keep them up with the rest of the class. If we're giving them less, then we're going to start to see that gap widened. But if we can give them more opportunities, that gap is going to close.
Stacy Hurst:Part of the education around dyslexia is just what you just said, Lindsay, they can learn to read. Something that is very powerful that Curtis has shared with my classes over and over is that he doesn't even show up as dyslexic on some screeners anymore. He is dyslexic. let's dismiss the myth that that goes away. But he has learned so much he can read we can teach them to read and the number one Donell you can tell me if this is any different, but I think the number one accommodation I see for students who have diagnosis of dyslexia is extra time. More time, like you were saying Lindsey, even if they're proficient readers, meaning they can read accurately, they need more time to process print.
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Donell Pons:You know, Lindsay, you made the point to me, this is all things that we need to remember and think about. That extended time as the student ages to we aren't we have a lot of expectations about what they're going to get out of that read to write. And so like you were just with this person, you were describing, just even adding additional skills to the read that makes that read more challenging, right? Yes, he could that over time as you as you expect more to come of that read to for that student. So again, that extended time that makes sense, why would have extended time for students? What's really interesting, and you guys have made me think about this. It's been a long time since I have thought about the years that I spent with my particularly my youngest I have to with dyslexia that my my youngest, really, really struggled solid case of dyslexia at all the DS, the dysgraphia, dyscalculia, you had them all and ADHD on top of it. So what it made me think about is early on, with all of my children, I love to read and write. And because I love to read and write clearly, it was a big thing in our home. And as I saw some of my my children having challenges coming to that and realizing this isn't going to be the same for everyone. I wanted the joy to still be there for all of them. And so as a parent in the home, that's where it first started. Then as an educator, I extended it into education. But it became how do I keep the joy for the individuals who are at this point, not having a lot of joy doing the thing, but need to experience how great it feels. When you tap into a read and you get into a story and you go places you never thought you would in your imagination? How do I help the student to be able to do that? So it boggles me and boggles my mind. Sometimes when I hear a teacher say, Oh, I really discourage audiobooks, they just really shouldn't be listening at all. And we only count if you're able to read if you're able to actually read it yourself, then it counts. And so that piece is always really I struggle with that. And I'm asking both of you have you've heard that or seen that. And what do you think about that? Lindsay? Yeah,
Lindsay Kemeny:I've heard that. And like with my son, I really had to be like, No, he needs the audio. And I think part of the concern is that it's going to replace and they're not going to be having the instructional practice reading aloud. So what I had to be really clear about was like, this is not replacing his actual, you know, reading decoding practice, I'm still going to make sure he gets that. And we're doing, you know, like, especially outside of school, like we're still doing this tutoring, right. And we're practicing out loud, but also that 20 minutes of reading that he's supposed to do every night. That's just going to be audiobooks. Yes, we've been reading, we're reading too, but that is going to be audiobooks or if you're doing silent reading in the classroom, and he doesn't have anyone to give them feedback right there or practicing with them. Then I want you know, I'm talking about my son but also any student to listen to an audiobook and my students right now because I do have one of the activities they're doing when I'm pulling small groups. Is the reading center and they have the choice to listen to audio, or to read a book. Everyone has the choice. I don't single anyone out. And even if I have an advanced reader that could be reading, but they want to listen, that is wonderful. They're enjoying the story. And they're usually listening to something that's more complex than what they could read. And they're hearing a wonderful model. And they're getting, you know, vocabulary. So there's a lot of benefits to it. Yeah,
Stacy Hurst:do you know, that was one of my number one concerns when the Common Core State Standards were first released, I noticed that they had mentioned audiobooks. And I can honestly say, I never thought, oh, we can't do that. Right. But my concern was, maybe for people who had read that administrators, teachers, parents, whomever, and think that that's an adequate replacement for teaching that student how to read, like, they're just gonna say they just have audiobooks. Now, we still need to build their decoding ability, we still need to work on those skills. And I think that comes with learning about how to teach reading, right, that we were not going to sacrifice that. But we are going to enhance their love of text and story and information and how that can impact their lives. I appreciate you, Donell, for bringing that aspect of reading up.
Lindsay Kemeny:I think another part of the whole joy is just, you know, I'm not going to say, Oh, you don't get to look at this book, because it's too hard for you, and you can't read it, you know, if they if they want to look at chrysanthemum great. Look at it, look through the pictures, you want to look at that. And remember when I read it to you, you know, the day before? Wonderful, have that experience with text. I know I'm going to be providing reading practice at another time. Right. So if you want to spend some time leafing through the pages of a favorite book that you can't read yet, I'm okay with that, you know, and sometimes I think we get to like stretch. And
Donell Pons:yeah, I so agree. And this is speaking of the older student, I liked how you were referring, you know, younger students and how incorporating, being able to listen to a book within that framework is so great and important. And also for the older students. And I'm thinking about again, it's knowing your space, if I'm teaching seventh grade, and they understand that I'm going to find out where all my students are at. So this is the other thing. If I'm teaching science, if I'm teaching math, if I'm teaching creative writing, I need to know where my students are at so that I can meet their needs. So I don't just assume in a seventh grade classroom, that all of my students are on a seventh grade reading level or above that we can assume that we should never assume that. And so when I was teaching language arts at a middle school, that was one of my first teaching jobs, the first thing I did is let's get down into that testing lab. And let's find out where everybody's at and reading. And I was shocked to find out that I probably only had out of my more than 250, I probably had two classes of maybe 20 students that were at grade level or above for reading proficiency. And then I had everything on the spectrum on down to about a kindergarten, that's where we ended up at about a kindergarten level. And not one of the students had an IEP, not one of the students had any sort of a diagnosis, certainly. And so for me, that was an eye opener. And it also, thankfully, I had the experience with my own children to know that, then that's on me, to help those students be able to understand and get into this material. It's not on that student who has been struggling. So right away, that was the conversation is I'm going to find ways in which you can be engaged with the material, because apparently you haven't. Nobody's thought about that to this point. So it was really interesting to have those kinds of conversations with students who had never had those kinds of conversations with a teacher where a teacher said, I understand this is where you're at. And I'm going to do my best to see that not only you succeed in this classroom, doing the material that you're being responsible for now that you're in seventh grade, but I'll also start looking for resources because they weren't readily available. No one had ever even thought about it. And so I started going out asking finding out, where can they get help Where's, and they saw me doing that for them. I got all kinds of books on all kinds of grade levels and put them up the front on the chalkboard and had them available. And I said whenever you're asked to do reading, you can't get a book at which level you're comfortable to take with you. So you're not the kids were always saying I lose points because I don't bring a book because I can't read it. So I said come in here, grab whatever you want. And it didn't take long before the students understood that. Here's a teacher who understands that this is hard for me. And they're trying because I didn't have everything I needed. I was new into that classroom. I was under resourced. I didn't have anything that I really needed to meet their needs. But they understood that I I was saying, I see you, I understand the challenge, and I'm gonna do what I can to help you. And trust me, that's invaluable to a student, I had more than a few Heart to Heart conversations out in the hallway with a few students who were otherwise very challenging and other classroom settings, who would break down literally with me, and we just kind of sit down, slumped down by the lockers and sit on the on the floor in the hallway. And they would say, I know you get how hard this is, you seem to be one of the only people understands how hard this is. And that's seventh grade, how many years have that student been struggling? So these conversations that we're having about this are so important from Lindsay in those early years and talking about what you're seeing in your school and what you're seeing in your classroom, to Stacy, preparing folks to enter into classrooms, knowing that this is going to be some of the challenges that they face. I think the only way forward is to continue to have conversations and to continue to press to say, hey, if we're still bogged down in myths, we need to dispel those myths, hey, if we're not having conversations about it, and we feel like dyslexia is not a word, we can even say we need to start having conversations. And so I think that that steady, constant pressure on let's keep the conversation happening is probably our only way forward.
Stacy Hurst:And do you think Donell, the people are shocked by like you were I remember a fourth grade teacher. The first year, my state was required to administer dibbles. And we were going over the data. And he came to me just shocked. He said, I had no idea every year, I figured there was one or two kids in my class that had a hard time reading, but I had no idea. And here's the interesting thing, all the data that keeps getting presented to us, whether it be nape, whether it be state scores, whether it be your district scores, it says that, that shouldn't be surprising, if we're believing the data, however, do we have this like not my kids, not my students not in my school? I just wonder what, you know, be different if we had a more open mind about that.
Donell Pons:Yes. And I think this was sense of responsibility for whatever grade they're in. So when I said that earlier, when I said owning your grade, I think that is one of the ways forward is I own my first grade, I understand all the things I'm responsible for in my first grade space, second grade, teacher, third grade, fourth grade. And again, if I'm fifth grade, sixth grade, then I realized that if they've made it to my fifth or sixth, I'm the last I'm the stop. I'm it. I'm the one who says oops, you missed it. And first you missed it. And second, you missed it. And third, they're still here needing help. And fifth. And so I'm that person to say that. And that's where I put myself in seventh grade for those students. As I said, this is the stop, I'm telling you, and I'm going to keep showing up and telling you that I have this many students who still need help with reading. And they're in seventh grade, and they're only headed eighth grade. So what are we going to do about it? Right. And we need to have places where it's okay for teachers to have those conversations. And I think we create them when we have this kind of conversation. And we put pressure where pressure needs to be to make space for teachers to get what they need, and to be resourced appropriately, right.
Lindsay Kemeny:And I think like something really important to remember, as a parent, or as a teacher of students with dyslexia, and I little bit touched on this when I was talking about the read aloud, or the audiobooks, having access to audiobooks is an accommodation. But the student still needs the intervention, the instruction to help and so sometimes, and I know I a little bit. Yeah, I kind of fell into this as a parent thinking my student needs, accommodations, accommodations, accommodations, will Yes, but we don't want to use some of that technology too soon. I think, like, we don't want to say, Oh, now you're, you know, it's a second grader. And we're saying, now you're going to use speech to text and you don't have to write anymore. Well, they still need that practice in writing. And I feel like that's something with my son, I almost a little bit like, let too soon, like, I let that happen too soon, versus no, as much as possible. Let's work on that weakness before we just focus on the accommodation for it. Does that make sense?
Donell Pons:Yes. And so I'm even going to add a third one into that group, Lindsay, because this does become very quickly complicated. We have the, as you said, accommodation. So that would be you know, say the audio book to help me get through that read so I can understand what everybody else is understanding about this. The intervention to help me work on the skill. You mentioned that one and said, Oh, but you know, I'm still going to be working on his ability to read that text, his or her ability to read that text. There's a third one, that's a slippery slope modification that comes in so quickly, where suddenly now I'm saying you're only responsible for half the page for everybody else will do a full page. I only need a sentence from you when everyone else is going to write a paragraph and pretty soon, you've got a student who gets to high school like I've had many a student who comes to help for help and says, I've never actually even written a paper I've only ever had to be responsible for, you know, a paragraph answer. And now the teacher says I need to write a five page paper. Oh my goodness. Yes, but it's been modification, that's been the problem. So this is that knowing and owning your space again, if I know in fourth grade that a student needs to be responsible for this much work, then what am I going to do to help make sure that I'm getting the appropriate accommodation so that they can have the material, the intervention to get the skills without making too many modifications so that the student doesn't exit, fourth grade, doing second grade work? Again, fifth grade, if I understand what I'm supposed to the students supposed to be able to do, then appropriate accommodation for meeting fifth grade work, intervention in that fifth grade to make sure oh, we're missing some skills here that we really need? And then am I modifying things too much for that student in order to move forward? So again, I think it's really understanding the space where you're teaching and making sure am i doing servicing all of these students, so when they leave here, they're ready for the next stage. And then from there, you know, again, it's the next that's the next teacher to pick that up for you. But I think really understanding where I'm at in my space, and and working that space and giving teachers what they need to be the expert of that space.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, you make a good point. What I've been thinking about this whole conversation is a word we often hear when we're having discussions about dyslexia is the word advocacy. And I'm very grateful that we have advocates, we have Decoding Dyslexia, International Dyslexia Association, full of people advocating. But as you both are talking, parents began to advocate students who know they have dyslexia can advocate for themselves. As a teacher, Donell, you advocated for more resources for your students, you were advocating. And I love that. But if we had in place, so to answer your original question, Donell, why are we still where we are, we still need advocates. But if we had systemic support, we wouldn't need as much advocacy, dyslexia. So I think that would be a good for me, a good indicator to keep my eye on it to see if we're making progress or not. Yep.
Donell Pons:And then epic says the pressure, right, the constant pressure, that we still need to do more. Yeah. So it's been a great conversation, you guys. And of course, we didn't settle all of the world's problems in conversation. But I'm hoping that this was an interesting conversation. And I'm pretty sure it is, and will be for folks, an interesting conversation, because we're talking about really relevant things that continue. I mean, there will be people who will think back on their education, they'll be older, and through the education system, who will think back and this will be relevant. There are people right now who are in it, who are saying this is really relevant to me. And there are people who are coming into the school system saying Why sure, hope I have everything, it's relevant for them. So this was a great conversation. I appreciate it.
Stacy Hurst:Thank you both, especially for your experiences and your own advocacy for your children. Because obviously, that's what started you on your journeys with the science of reading. And we've all benefited so much from the fact that you guys got on that path. So thank you so much. And for those of you who are listening, thank you for joining this conversation. Thank you for all you do for students day in and day out. We appreciate you. When it comes to dyslexia. We're here for you specifically, Donell and Lindsay. If you need any support, let us know we're happy to provide a shoulder to cry on or resources that we have. So thank you again, and we hope that you'll join us for our next topic on the next episode of Literacy Talks.
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