Legislation that supports and funds the science of reading initiatives can make a difference for students, educators, families, and communities. In this episode of Literacy Talks, our experts focus on the need to include teachers and administrators in crafting legislation that clearly defines the work ahead. They emphasize that these legislations must contain provisions for additional professional development for frontline classroom teachers and integrate the science of teaching and learning reading.
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Legislation that supports and funds the science of reading initiatives can make a difference for students, educators, families, and communities. In this episode of Literacy Talks, our experts focus on the need to include teachers and administrators in crafting legislation that clearly defines the work ahead. They emphasize that these legislations must contain provisions for additional professional development for frontline classroom teachers and integrate the science of teaching and learning reading.
Subscribe to our Literacy Talks podcast digest and never miss an episode! We’ll send you summaries of every session, links to the resources discussed on each show, and some extra goodies so that your learning never stops.
Subscribe to our podcast digest.
Download the new Reading Horizons Discovery Product Guide.
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Read the transcripts.
Hello literacy leaders and champions. Welcome to literacy talks. We are so excited to welcome you to this podcast series from Reading Horizons dedicated to exploring the ideas, trends, insights and practical issues that will help us all improve our professional practice in teaching reading. Our series host is Stacy Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Officer at Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education and Lindsay Kemeny, a Utah based elementary classroom teacher. Today's topic legislating literacy and Donal ponds will lead the discussion. Let's get started.
Stacy Hurst:Hello, and welcome to another episode of literacy talks. I'm Stacy Hurst. And I'm joined today by Lindsay Kemeny and Donell Pons. And we have another exciting topic that I'm looking forward to discussing Darnell is going to lead us in that conversation. So we'll turn the time right over to you don't know.
Donell Pons:Great, thank you, Stacey. So as always, we're on a topic that we find interesting that we've kind of been kicking around a little bit. So we're hoping that everybody else finds this interesting as well as we are discussing literacy and all things literacy. And this week, I'm kind of titling what we're going to talk about legislating literacy. So this is legislation time for a lot of places around the country. And a lot of places around the country that got on a map today, there's an interactive map at the International Dyslexia Association website that talks about what kind of legislation is happening around literacy and every state is lit up, you can hover over your state to see how many pieces of legislation are happening. Wow, this is hot, it's so hot. It's everything from finally talking about, let's do something about students who are struggling to COVID put people in a panic because the statistics are worse than ever. And so now they're legislating and there's money to be spent. Some people are dipping into those COVID funds that they've had for other things. So there's a lot of things that are pushing this momentum. So in this year 2022, we have a lot of challenges facing education. We've got those COVID disruptions, we have teacher shortages, we have substitute teacher shortages. And every day we hear some news about the pressure being put on education. All of this is happening. However, while it's legislative season, in most parts of the country, there's also a flurry of activity surrounding just reading instruction itself, not just other things regarding education. And so in most states, like I said, there's some sort of early literacy legislation for grades K through three. And in some instances, pre K, even we're seeing some pre K legislation as well, that's interesting in some states. And it's being proposed in almost all of those, I'm seeing some sort of reference to the science of reading this reference to the buzzwords science of reading. And that is floating around in every piece of legislation, whether it's mandating that they teach the science of reading, and whether that's in higher ed, whether that's in teachers that are on the ground already in classrooms, and how we're going to do that. And that is typically attached to what we're calling a knowledge and practice standards test for the teachers of reading that they have to pass that's usually connected to that body of information about the science of reading. And so these two things are going hand in hand. It also involves curriculum coaching, and assessment can have a lot of those pieces to this got us talking because I've been up to our local legislation to here in the state of Utah, and brought it back and talk to Stacy, and with Lindsay, and we've been having your own conversations. And so these things are happening around the country, you're going to hear maybe some things that are localized to Utah, but trust me, there's some form of this happening where you are today, too. And so on that note, this is I think it's gonna be a great conversation because we have Stacey you're teaching in that higher ed setting in a department of education, you're going to be impacted by some of what's happening, the legislation coming down. Lindsay you're directly on the front lines in the classroom. So when they say we legislate that all educators do such and such. They're talking directly to a Lindsay somewhere who already has her plateful and I already mentioned all the other reasons why it's difficult to teach right now. So Stacy, I'm going to start with you as an educator in the university setting in a school of education, teaching, reading instruction, decree service K through three teachers. What impact has legislation that mandates in the case of our state, that eventually all pre service teachers are going to need to pass a certain knowledge and practice standards test? How has that impacted your teaching?
Stacy Hurst:Remember, right away, it impacted what I'm able to do in my position, because I happen to be hired right after that legislation passed two years ago. And so when I came in, and the syllabi were in various states of three queueing system And whole and balanced literacy focused practices There was reference to and content related to the National Reading Panel findings. But that was the most updated information. I am revamping all of these things we need to align them with at the time I was aligning with the teacher knowledge and practice standards. Our state has since updated our literacy content standards for pre service teachers that are highly aligned with those teacher knowledge practice standards from Ida. So it allowed me to say there is legislation that relates to this, our pre service teachers before they get their license will need to pass the Foundations of Reading Assessment.
Donell Pons:So stay standing that's so interesting to hear you talk about that, and how possibly having legislation pushing forward opened a door for you to be able to have conversations that maybe otherwise wouldn't be so readily available to you. And in fact, to that point, it was interesting, I was reading in it was an IDA publication. It's Dr. David Herford. He does a lot of things with dyslexia and reading that he quoted, the National Council of teacher quality examines the quality of teacher training programs, they found that only 22% of the 594 teacher certification programs received scores of three or higher on a four point rating scale about how you teach reading. nearly 80% of the Elementary Education Programs received scores of zero
Stacy Hurst:believe that okay, so yeah, what I saw, okay, that's
Donell Pons:so interesting. So Lindsay, now immediately, I'm going to turn to you so you go through one of these programs, you come out of bright, shiny new teacher, you hit your classroom, and Lindsay, I know, you've got a great way of taking us on the journey from when you first hit the classroom and what you saw and how we're prepared to do versus
Lindsay Kemeny:Yeah, I mean, my early college and early teaching was all heavily trained in in balanced literacy, you know, kind of whole language theories. So the whole way I taught reading initially was very foggy, I didn't really understand what was happening. I thought I did, and I'm just yeah, I'm gonna, we're gonna read to within by students, right, like, where am I going to surround them with language? And, you know, here's these leveled readers. Oh, I guess we're all the way through the seas, I guess we go to level D, I don't really know how to get you to the next level, you know, but we'll just keep plodding away. When I went to kindergarten is when I started to be like, wait a second, something's not right with the way of I was taught to teach reading because I don't like this, I don't want to say, look at the picture to help you. I can't remember how much I've already told on the podcast. But so that was going on my son diagnosed with dyslexia, then I start learning all I can and just, you know, like a starved animal, just like taking in as much PD and books and podcasts and things that I could and then applying that to my classroom. So applying it with my son and seeing it work with my son, then applying it to my classroom and suddenly, ah, my students, even my strugglers, now I can see how I can help everybody. So I just see this huge difference. And I think about those years of teaching, and there's just always those kids that yeah, they're just always going to need help. And but now I know, hey, what's the weakness? Let's dive in? What do they need?
Donell Pons:Now? Lindsey, you said something interesting. Because like you said, you hit the classroom took you a very short period of time to realize, I don't know what I need to know to help these students. How have you noticed as a classroom teacher a difference when you were recognizing for yourself, I need to know more? Are you finding more resources that are grounded in the science of reading? Because of the legislation? Is it trickling down into your classroom? What does that look like? Because
Lindsay Kemeny:of the legislation. Last year, our districts purchase letters for everyone. So everyone got to do letters training. So before that, I was trying to find a way to get letters myself. And I was reaching out and and even before I knew there was letters, I was writing grants for, you know, Orton Gillingham training and trying to find as many resources as I could, but I it was all discovering that stuff on my own. And then now that there's letters, that's great, we still have programs, though in our district that are not aligned with the science of reading. So that's another, you know, I'm going out on my own a lot. Like I just purchased a writing program through a grant last week, because we don't have a writing program. And so I'm just trying, you know, it's just a constant battle. I don't know if I answered your question.
Donell Pons:No, you did. And Lindsey, I think he did a great job to have that disparity between. Okay, great, we have some pieces, but then I don't have other critical pieces. And I think a lot of the legislation, what we're noticing with these other pieces of legislation is we're trying to fill in those gaps, noticing that we may have done this piece, but now we've left a gaping hole over here, and we're trying to fill it. I'm gonna ask you one more question and move on to Stacey because it got me thinking about something that they're some of the pushback that I've heard from some of our local legislators. Some who have a little background in teaching themselves, say teachers are overwhelmed or overloaded. You load them down with all kinds of things and now you expect them to learn this science of reading And then you want them to maybe even do a new curriculum, you have to be really careful about what you're doing to teachers. And so a lot of the pushback I've heard, what do you say, as a teacher?
Lindsay Kemeny:Well, this is hard, because it is, it's a lot of work. And there's a lot to do. And it's always hard to learn a new program. But overall, it's about the students. And we just need to do everything we can to help them we talked about in our last podcast about, you know, who's going to advocate for these kids who's going to speak up for them. And as teachers, I think we should, as a profession, be always wanting to learn and grow and improve, right? We could just can't be stagnate. So I can like sympathize. Yes, it's hard. I know, it's a lot of work. But we've got to set that aside and go for it.
Stacy Hurst:If I could just jump in here too, because I was just having a conversation with a group of teachers, literally right before we started recording. And they have started to take the letters training, and there were about eight of them. And six of them echoed exactly what you just said, dunno, at first, we're like, oh, one more thing. And it's COVID. We have teachers on the brink, literally of samedi. And then they got into it. And they said, You know what, we started slowly realizing that this is actually what we've been missing. And if we stick through it, it seems like it's going to make our jobs, therefore our lives easier. Because we're going to be getting to the heart of the matter. We're going to be teaching reading the way it should be taught. And we will get the results that we're looking for, for our kids. Based on what you were saying, Lindsay, most teachers go into the profession, with the kids in mind, their students are Yeah, their mind in their hearts. Right. So
Lindsay Kemeny:well, this helps you just have so much clarity, when the more you know, then you kind of know more what to do, it builds your confidence as well, you know, as well as your students,
Donell Pons:Lindsey, I was gonna say you're a prime example of that if people can't hear it in your voice, you can certainly see it. If you ever meet Lindsey, this is not a tired teacher. This is a teacher with a lot of energy. Lindsay has a ton of energy, because Lindsey has the tools that you need to be able to do the job that you're doing. And there's an enthusiasm, excitement when you have what you need to do your job. And that's what I see from you.
Lindsay Kemeny:Thank you seeing that growth gives me that enthusiasm and excitement and Oh, my goodness, like almost all my students are well above typical progress. This is awesome, you know, so go ahead, Stacy
Stacy Hurst:insistently, no matter what grade you're teaching in, right. And there is a lot of satisfaction that comes from that. But as Lindsay was talking and knowing that about Lindsay, I echo everything you just said, I know. It made me just a tiny bit angry that she has to write grants to get access to resources. And I know that Lindsay is a learner first. And she demonstrates that always and she'll dive in and do what it takes for her students. But Lindsay is a very talented professional that has a lot going on in and outside of her classroom. And that time could be better spent writing
Donell Pons:or SEARCH programs, right? Okay. On this note, and maybe both of you at some point are going to want to reply but this is where it's going to take us into so Stacey on the end where you're trying to hit the teachers before they hit the classroom. That's ideally what we would love to do is start sending teachers down the pike that don't have what they need, right. But this is interesting. Again, referring back to that article by David Harford. He said pre service and experience teachers and university instructors all performed poorly on measures or constructs relating to reading acquisition illiteracy. less than 25% of the teachers assessed could accurately segment words into their individual speech sounds, or phonemes. Identify the number of phonemes and words or recognize words with unpredictable spelling's teachers themselves report that they did not receive formal instruction regarding phonological processing during their own academic training, when they were in school, let alone in a teacher preparation program. So what do you do, Stacy, when that's what's happening coming into your training program,
Stacy Hurst:that was my master's thesis study, I replicated Louisa Moats and others who have surveyed teachers and professors. And I found the exact same thing. 15 years later, after the national reading panel had published, even that much didn't get disseminated to the point that teachers knew that box has four phonemes, I can tell you the exact day and place where I argued with the professor reading about how many phonemes the word box had, and he's the one that had been teaching years of pre service teachers. So that is frustrating to me. And I would say keeping us focused on legislation. I love all of the initiatives that are aimed at giving teachers more resources, but at some point, we need to make up for what they did not get in college, and I don't want to use the word accountable. But yes, they do. And I'm going to, we need to be holding the professors accountable. I'm one of them. So I'm saying we need to pass the tests can the professors pass the test at a minimum Also, I would love to see legislation based on how many classes a pre service teacher gets in reading, I have two classes to cover the simple view of reading Scarborough's reading up the four part processor. And that's not even addressing practice, right? And that intervention and assessment, I'm preaching to the choir, you know, all the things. So if we could help, and I also don't want to use the word blame, and I am serious about that it's not the teachers fault. We did not get the training, we needed to get those aligned. And I don't even want to say it's the professor's fault. Historically, it hasn't been I think now it is, we know better. And now we can hold people accountable if we don't do better. Did I answer your question?
Donell Pons:Absolutely. And you did answer it. Because if we have teachers that are coming into the programs, that they themselves feel shaky in the foundations of how they read or or how to even disseminate get to this information to classes is definitely not going to cut it. And then likewise, even just listening to Lindsey talk, when she talked about, you know, thankfully, this letters training came down the pike. But how much additional training has Lindsay done. So that's the other piece that I wanted our legislators to be aware of is I held up the two books that can make up the foundations of the letters training. And that's fantastic, just get started. But then I also held up a stack that was as tall as I am basically, of books that I've been reading, in addition to get additional information. So what we're talking about here is there is a lot of information in the field of the science of reading. And to think that it's a one stop shop, you can pump it and fill in get a little bit of it. We've been doing a disservice the whole way. So that's my next that I want to lead into is Do you think we currently have a good understanding of what the science of reading is its depth and breadth or don't wait? And do we think the term has been co opted? So how much of that is happening? What do you think we talked a little bit about CO opting the term of science and reading but do you think folks really understand the depth of
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Stacy Hurst:I just want to just to wrap up our last question and lead. I mean, this is really Yeah. two classes of reading is enough. If you are working with the philosophy that reading happens naturally like language does. Because literally, I could sum up my pre service education with the phrase that came out of the mouth of my professors. You just need to marinate children in text. That is what they told me. And by the way, focus on the meaning of individual words. So if that's your philosophy, two classes is plenty. In fact, I'd be saying what else do you need? Just buy books, right? So we need to align our instruction with what we do know. And yes, we do. We know a lot. However, people who think that the pendulum is just swinging, that they view this as a pendulum swinging issue. That's where the CO opting comes in. And the sheep in wolf's clothing. And I saw this firsthand, I will just share, if you don't mind. I received four blocks training right before I started teaching in the classroom, which was very balanced literacy back the whole time it was balanced. And it came after the National Reading Panel Report. So they were saying See, we do have phonics. So we do have they called it word study. And we do focus on comprehension, we do focus on fluency we do. So that was all the training, I went to his specific training about word study, and the curriculum. And that's air quotes for everybody. You can't see me the curriculum was really just an activity book. And it was manipulating letters to spell different words, which is a fantastic activity, lacking in instruction and explicit, systematic. We know all this. So the national reading panel had just come out and remember what they said a phonics instruction is important. Nobody could ignore that anymore. And be it needs to be taught explicitly, systematically and sequentially. And that became the tagline. So I was in this training, the trainer who had written the book was talking to us about it and said, Oh, by the way, if you have the first edition, this is the segment. Don't worry about getting a new one. This is exactly the same. We just had to put on the title of the book, explicit systematic sequential, and then kind of rearrange a couple of the lessons that stuck with me. For whatever reason, it was one of those things that I was like, interesting, and that's what we are in danger of happening all over that term science of reading. I love how Lindsey talks about it. I hope you save more and Lindsay about how protective You are that?
Donell Pons:Yeah. So let's go there, Lindsey,
Lindsay Kemeny:I am I'm so protective, because at first it was just getting the word out there. And now it is about protecting the term science of reading. And it drives me crazy because people use it inaccurately they attribute certain things to the science of reading that aren't necessarily, you know, aligned. And we need to have that common definition and clarity of what it is. It reminds me of, when Emily Hanford had that podcast, she interviewed Ken Goodman. And he said, you know, well, that's not my science. And that's what I kind of fear. And I feel like people are, well, this is my science of reading. Oh, yes, my science of reading is this. And, you know, the science of reading is scientifically based research. You know, it's high quality research, we just can't take any study that, you know, maybe a company has put out there, and they taken the data of all the kids that didn't do well, and are only presenting some of the data. It's a problem, and no one owns the term. So people are just slapping it on their products.
Donell Pons:Yeah, I think it's going to take us full circle to some of the concerns that I think are happening in other states, not just ours. And when you do see, we're moving towards legislating literacy. There's some terminology that comes up that terminology is very specific, understanding it is very important to what we're doing, then there are individuals who may have been in this field of reading for a long time that were not participating in the science of reading. And they may have been more of the philosophizing, the idealizing, the percolating the surrounding students with language, that sort of thing, and not really getting into the science of reading. And now when they see this movement, then they're sort of coming in under the umbrella and saying, Oh, well, well, I've always been there. I've always been under the science of reading. And so we do, we need to be careful, because that's critical. If you've been in charge for the past 25 years, and you were part of how we got here, then I think we should be very suspicious about you being on the bus, as we're trying to move forward. That's all I gotta say about that. Because let's look at the history. If you were a part of what's been happening, then you're really going to have to justify your seat on the bus going forward.
Stacy Hurst:And how that's my big question. Because this just happened in our state, I will not name names. But there was an educator who wrote a textbook that I studied from as a pre service teacher that was very popular across the country, touting balanced literacy, whole language. And then he later referred to himself Oh, after the national reading panel report was published as a closet fornicator all along. And the fact that he had to say a closet, we will determine is problematic on so many levels. So he gets up in front of these politicians and says that he's been writing books based on the science of reading for 29 years, it was written 29,
Lindsay Kemeny:nine books. Yeah,
Stacy Hurst:those are the books that taught me the incorrect practices and do not get me wrong, people can and should change. Lindsay and I both have that story. We embraced and fully taught balanced literacy practices in our classroom. But when you know better, this is the key not to use a trite phrase, the reading league uses it frequently. And I love it, you do better. And so where is the proof of doing better? And so my big question, Darnell, and this is why I love that you're on Capitol Hill, I joke about it, I would be on the news if I were up there, because I can't contain this anger that I have. So what will it take to have the legislators be as informed? So they know, because they are influenced by so many people, and they're not educators? And they're not science of reading people? What would it take for them to help make the decisions that are so critical based on who is espousing practices and knows the science of reading, and those who are holding on to practices because their names are associated with it? How do they get to know
Lindsay Kemeny:they don't know who to listen to? And so you have this guy that they're giving an air to him? And he says, I've written 29 books on the science of reading, and we know those are 29 books on balanced literacy. No, you know, but they don't know who to trust. And we can say, oh, what conferences? Are they at? You know, are they at plane talk? Are they at the reading league conferences? Are they at International Dyslexia Association, some of these guys, they see, you know, the fields coming through with a lot of money attached to them. And I feel like there are dollar signs in their eyes. And, you know, I feel like the rest of us, we have students, that's who we're thinking about, not the money. And so it's scary. My
Donell Pons:thoughts are, you have to demonstrate that your knowledge just like teachers are having to demonstrate. So again, if you have anything to do with this legislation, on any level, if you're administrating your coaching, you're teaching, you're passing that test, you're taking the same test and you're passing the test. I don't see how there's any other way around that piece, because then you gain credibility. You shouldn't be asking teachers to do something you can't do it. If you're trying to administer to teachers. If you did have a past in balance literacy, if that has been your past. Then it is on You and it behooves you to demonstrate how that isn't your past anymore. And that means that other folks who are knowledgeable about that individual's past are going to have to step up and say, I'm sorry, but your past does not look like the science of reading. How have you come to the science of reading? We're gonna have to ask point blank. And you
Stacy Hurst:know, I, we kind of ended the last podcast with this thought, too. As teachers, as educators, we always should be learners. First, we talked a little bit, I think about the role of humility, and Ken Goodman, may he rest in peace. And I mean that how much ego was involved at some point, and I'm not just pointing fingers, I'm checking my own, right, angry as I get about these things. And I do know of Stephanie Stoller started an organization for those of us who are teaching the science of reading, in universities in higher education, there are people out there who are doing a great job, who would pass that test tomorrow without study. So I do want to recognize that and then just I'm calling myself out, I'm going to keep it the forefront of my mind to just be humble and learn. And I think because our egos end up impacting our students.
Donell Pons:Absolutely. I'm going to wrap this up by asking each of you. And so I'll start with you, Lindsey, Stacy, you get to think about it. If you had an opportunity to speak to some legislators who are making these decisions, this key pieces of literacy legislation are coming before them. What are some things that you would like them to know?
Lindsay Kemeny:Well, I want them to understand the difference between instruction aligned with the science of reading, and these balanced literacy and whole language practices. I feel like they really need to understand the issue here. And sometimes, you know, that gets lost a little bit. It's like, oh, yeah, research, but we need to understand, you know, what's been happening in our country. So I would say that, first of all,
Donell Pons:I'd like to see the legislative sessions on this held at times where teachers can be there are actually zooming in teachers from classrooms to be able to participate. That's what I would love to see. I don't want to attend another one of these education committee meetings and not see teachers,
Lindsay Kemeny:one of the other things I'm thinking is just I want them to know, a little more of what it's like in the classroom. Right. And what we're dealing with it you're exactly right, Darnell, we can never be there. Because you know what, yeah, it's really hard to sub right now. You're teaching. It's really hard to get, yeah, I could leave and there'd be no one to replace me. You know, it'd be like the principal coming in. So
Donell Pons:yeah, how about you, Stacey.
Stacy Hurst:Um, so I always have a list. And I love that we're looking to other states who've had success. But I would say we are any state is its own state. So you got to take that into consideration, which I think most states do. But we see the beginning, we see the end, we know where we're going. So a I would say go upstream, hold the colleges of education, no, let's not say accountable. Let's give them resources and training, and space to teach all that they need to teach. So our teachers are well prepared to teach, and arguably the most important thing that we teach, that impacts everything else. So there's that. And then also, we have the end in mind. We know based on research, 95% of our students should be able to read proficiently, we're nowhere near that. We know that legislators are aware of that we know the end, we know where we start, but it's all the middle stuff. So even letters as great of a resource as it is. And yes, it needs to happen. And it is the thing that we should have learned in college. But then what don't stop the resources there. Because what really needs to change is teacher practice. And I don't mean that in a blaming way, in a way that is aligned with what they're learning letters, they need the resources, high quality materials, and time and people to help that and they don't need to be spending their spare time writing grants. Anyway. So the middle, the middle needs to be supported.
Donell Pons:And I think I'm going to wrap it up by painting a picture, because I've heard all of these are fantastic. And I can hand this to a legislator right now. And they have your comments. Lindsey, your comment, Stacy. And then I would put a bow on it. Because what are the arguments I hear too, is we want our le A's, those education agencies, those schools to have their own choice, that there's a lot of being able to be independent, make your own choice at that level. And I want to point out, you would be making better choices at that level, we wouldn't be having this conversation if they knew what to choose if they knew what was missing. That's the whole point. They don't. So someone's got to take control of that at some point. And I want to illustrate that by saying one of my adult students who's become a really good reader who can get enjoyment from reading finally in his 50s. Every time we have a tutoring session, which is weekly. He will bring up his elementary school education. It's always the elementary school education and he says I remember every day sitting out in the hall for hours at a desk because I couldn't do anything that was happening in the classroom and the principal and you remember the principal's name this guy in his 50s, the principal would walk by and say to me, are you still out here? What are you doing out here? And that just illustrates if that principal had no known principle did not know. So that's why the legislation and helping people know what it is they don't know, is a part of the solution as well. So I think all of these pieces, you guys have been fantastic, what a conversation I could go on for days. But it's been great to have this conversation, right?
Stacy Hurst:It has been great, and we don't have days, right. So thank you, everyone, for being part of this effort. And feel free to reach out to us. Let us know what's worked for you, even if you have a good therapist that I probably need after episodes like this. But yes, I love the world of education. We all have our students in our hearts and minds. So let's just stay focused on what's best for them. Thank you for joining us. We will see you next time on literacy talks.
Narrator:Thanks for joining us today for literacy talks, the podcast series for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Literacy talks comes to you from Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Join us next time