Welcome to Season 2! Teaching Pre-K-3 learners to make sound/symbol connections can be challenging. In this episode of Literacy Talks, our trio of literacy experts tackles this challenge with wit, insight, and a practical approach to explicit, systematic, and sequential phonics instruction. Make the leap from “drill and kill” practice to “skill and thrill” with hosts Stacy Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Officer at Reading Horizons, Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education, and Lindsay Kemeny, a Utah-based elementary classroom teacher.
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Welcome to Season 2! Teaching Pre-K-3 learners to make sound/symbol connections can be challenging. In this episode of Literacy Talks, our trio of literacy experts tackles this challenge with wit, insight, and a practical approach to explicit, systematic, and sequential phonics instruction. Make the leap from “drill and kill” practice to “skill and thrill” with hosts Stacy Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Officer at Reading Horizons, Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education, and Lindsay Kemeny, a Utah-based elementary classroom teacher.
Subscribe to our Literacy Talks podcast digest and never miss an episode! We’ll send you summaries of every session, links to the resources discussed on each show, and some extra goodies so that your learning never stops.
Subscribe to our podcast digest.
Download the new Reading Horizons Discovery Product Guide.
Access the show notes.
Read the transcripts.
Hello literacy leaders and champions. Welcome to literacy talks, the podcast series from Reading Horizons dedicated to exploring the ideas, trends, insights and practical issues that will help us create literacy momentum. Our series host is Stacey Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Officer at Reading Horizons, we're reading momentum begins joining Stacy our Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education. And Lindsay Kemeny, a Utah based elementary classroom teacher. Today's topic is a deep dive into the essential elements of phonics lessons, helping all readers make those critical sound assemble connections. Let's get started.
Stacy Hurst:Welcome, everyone to this episode of literacy talks. I'm Stacy Hurst and I am joined by Lindsay Kemeny and Donell Pons as I am every week, and this week, Lindsey has our topic. And I think we'll just dive right in Lindsey, it can't wait to hear what it is.
Lindsay Kemeny:Yay. Yes. So today we're going to talk about phonics. And when we talk about phonics, we are talking about the system to teach sound symbol correspondences in our language. Now, it's not the only element of reading instruction. There's a lot of other important components and you can see that when you look at Scarborough's reading rope, but phonics is a very critical component. And a lot of times when we're talking about the science of reading, phonics gets a lot of attention. And I think that is because how advocates of the science of reading teach phonics is very different than how balanced literacy or whole language proponents teach phonics. Would you guys agree with that?
Stacy Hurst:You know, Lindsey, I would so agree with that. And based on the way I was taught or not taught about phonics instruction,
Lindsay Kemeny:yes, because Stacey, I wanted to ask you, you know, because I know you were trained in bouncers literacy, just like I was. But I also know that you read the National Reading report and got a good foothold in phonics early on. So did you teach more kind of balanced literacy phonics before you learned that?
Stacy Hurst:I did. And you know what the best way I could describe my instruction was kind of that I was making stuff up. When I say I was trained in balanced literacy, I was taught balanced literacy as a pre service teacher. But I was also trained in it as a brand new teacher, I was hired in the spring. And I mean, I guess we could say it, but the time there was a program called the four blocks, and they were literally balancing each block. So phonics fell in the word work block, and honestly, the only thing I was taught, and I think I've shared this on here before was a word building activity, which is a good activity, but the instruction was not there. Yes, certainly was not systematic or sequential. And then in my guided reading training, we were taught to address phonics as a last resort when a student got to a word that they couldn't use context or picture to figure out, but I do remember, I'll just end my comment by saying this, I remember teaching I taught first grade. So this is critical, right? This is a really developmentally important year for decoding. And I remember my students had so many questions that I could not answer. And one specifically that I remember, I taught silent ie because I knew Silent E. And one of my students said how can wave says wave and have says have had no idea? And guess what? I said? No, it's just
Lindsay Kemeny:crazy. Um, so I had a really similar experience, Stacy, because I feel like, you know, I thought I taught phonics, but if I look back on it, I was wasn't really teaching phonics. I was facilitating activities. And like you said it was word work. So yes, I, I just remember, I did have this book. It was a it was called phonics. But it was just a bunch of activities, and one of them was making words. And so that was a great activity, they would go out and get their little letters, and it's like, kind of like word chaining, which is awesome. But that can't be your main instruction. And then I remember word chunks. I would teach word chunks. So and there was no rhyme or reason to, to how I would teach him I would just Okay, let's do Ed today. All right, everyone, let's think of words with Edie. You know, lead fed Ted. We'd, you know, make a list of them. And then we'd put ed on our little word, chunk, word wall, and it was just it was very reactive. So it was just kind of whatever came up in what we're reading about. And if they didn't know that word, or that word, chunk sunk, then I would teach it. So there was just you know, there's no scope and sequence. And that's I think a really important part is that a good phonics program needs to have a scope and sequence?
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, I'm laughing, and I shouldn't be I'm laughing because that's how I deal with hard things. But this is a really, like, I'm looking back and thinking, Oh, my gosh, we all did this, right? And I know phonics becomes central in the debate over the science of reading and all of that thing, but it's such an integral part. Yes, it's just a part. But it's very, very essential. And I'm also wondering, Darnell, as you're listening to Lindsey and I talked about this. Are you thinking, no wonder, no wonder.
Donell Pons:Yeah, in fact, it had me thinking about even stepping into classrooms where my children were in kindergarten, first, second, and third grade. And I have four children, two with dyslexia, two who do not have dyslexia. And I was thinking about how vastly different all four of their experiences were given who was teaching in the classroom. So that's another thing is to think about, that really shouldn't look that different. Given one classroom to the next, right, we're living in the same district, I'm in the same district, maybe we attended two different elementary schools, that experience shouldn't be so very vastly different. But it certainly was for each one of my students. The other thing I was thinking about as in classrooms, where clearly the teacher did not have any training. And then because the teacher didn't have any training didn't realize what was lacking. So didn't go out on his or her own, to look for material, you'd walk into those classrooms. And the kids were busy, I helped out in classrooms where the students were always busy. But they will be doing various things from pictures, sorting pictures, to come up with words. And this was valuable time, as you mentioned, Stacey first second grade. And I don't know what the kids were supposed to be extrapolating from this. But it clearly wasn't explicitly teaching anything that had to do with the ability to read. And then the other piece, I thought was interesting is looking around the classroom. There were only maybe five students who really were grasping anything that was connected to reading, the majority of the classroom was getting something to nothing out of it. So that's the other piece to think about is this kind of instruction leaves a lot of students behind not just those students who may have a real reason to be struggling like my went to several of my children who had, you know, developmental dyslexia. But there are other students who didn't have developed developmental dyslexia who weren't getting a whole lot about out of it either.
Lindsay Kemeny:Yeah, it reminds me of Nancy Young's letter of reading, because you know, I can't remember the percentages right now is it like the top 30 percents can learn pretty much any way like those are those ones you're talking about Donal, they can kind of figure it out on their own. But everyone else can really benefit from more explicit instruction. So let's talk about phonics and and the important elements of a phonics lesson. So let's just share, you know, an overview of what a good phonics lesson looks
Stacy Hurst:like. Before we answer that, can I say something because I think this is a really important point about phonics instruction in general. And this is what I learned as a first grade teacher who read the national reading panel, and I'm just gonna continue to brag about this throughout my whole career, I read the whole book, guys. It's so big and fat and thick. And I learned a lot. But the thing that really stood out to me was that is what I was missing. I was missing phonics in a very big way. And the way that the National Reading Panel taught us to address it, not only the day to day, but the overall, we've already mentioned, I mean, three words became the catchphrase, right? What did what are they? What do we think of when we think of phonics instruction and National Reading Panel, systematic, systematic, explicit, systematic and sequential. And honestly, that became, it kind of echoes our worry about the science of reading, it just became the phrase and I don't think anybody gave a thought to what that actually meant, because the activities that you and I were using Lindsay, right on the front of the book said systematic explicit sequential phonics instruction. And it was none of those. It was an activity that I became really good at managing as a teacher. So I think those three words are really important. And our daily lesson plan will be a snippet of that. But overall, if we're just teaching these skills in isolation, there's no system to it. We're not going to have the outcomes we're looking for. If the sequence is a mess, or we're doing it in a way that's confusing to students, we're not going to have the outcomes even if we're teaching phonics, right. We know explicit instruction. I think that one makes the most sense. Just You know, word itself. But when you're talking about the programs, you and I use Lindsey, and even some really popular programs today, there's no instruction. And that's what we need to look for that explicit instruction is the key. So when we're talking about a daily lesson, it needs to also fit in that bigger framework, it's got to be systematic. Is there a system to it like there's a system to our language? are we addressing those aspects to off my soapbox, sorry, that that was important for me to recognize. And I want to mention to you right, before we get to that, one of the other things a National Reading Panel pointed out because of how opaque our languages, phonics instruction is most effectively taught kindergarten through second grade. And that word through is important, because it does take students in America a year or two longer than it takes students in other countries with a more transparent language is the word I want to use to read because we have a more sophisticated orthography complex, I think I should say, the what's really important about that is that this is a systemic issue, too. It's something we should address as schools and districts, because when I taught and, by the way, don't know you said, teachers wouldn't know, didn't know, we didn't know. And by the way, when I did have a list, after I read, the National Reading Panel was hard for me to find support, it was hard for me to find a program that had all of those elements, I had to start writing my own, which was so time consuming. And I hear of teachers today doing that. And I think you shouldn't be doing that of all the things that you shouldn't be creating. That might be the one because it's so complex, and it should span kindergarten through second grade in the same kind of way. I mean, that's the ideal. Did I say I was off my soapbox. I might have just been kidding, but I'm gonna step down now.
Lindsay Kemeny:Okay. But some really important points there, Stacy that I'm really glad you brought up, Donnell, will you just give us then an overview of a phonics lesson?
Donell Pons:You bet. And in the spirit of making sure that teachers have access to information, I'm going to tell you exactly where I'm getting the information from. So many teachers are being given the opportunity to attend letters training. Dr. Louisa Moats is one of the founders of that letters training, and credited with putting this together. So we'll make sure we note everybody. So within their letters training, you've received some manuals, there's a volume one and volume two. And we're going to be looking at volume one, and I'm going to be on page 166. So there are educators out there who are attending training, who want to run and grab their manual, or maybe it's sitting handy while you're listening to the podcast, feel free to pause and run, grab your manual, so you can walk through it too, because that's where we're going to be talking about a lot of these elements. Now, mind you, Dr. moats is quick to point out in letters at the base of this instructional plan, a general phonics lesson plan is quick to point out that this isn't the only way to be able to teach phonics. And while there's no accepted one accepted way of doing it, this has the elements of it in here. So it's a nice one to follow. So she's quick to point that out. She also mentioned that important element was talked about before having a scope and sequence. So we're talking about a lesson here. But also to remember that this is part of a larger scope and sequence of how things are being taught. So all of those things are really important to remember that in the components of the lesson, it starts off it gives you approximate time. That's also important to note too, that you'll have time periods for this because you don't want to be spending too much time on certain elements, right. And you should be looking at the amount of time being spent on certain elements to see how much weight it has within the lesson and also maybe the level of difficulty. So there are different things that should be telling you as you're going through as an educator. So looking at the component of the lesson, it says you're going to state the goal and purpose that's important the instructional routines and techniques that we're going to say so today we're going to study it's not going to be a mystery Am I gonna have you guessed today we're going to study and then practice phonological awareness warmup exercises listening to a manipulating sounds in spoken words. This is no more than three minutes seven, we're not spending 20 minutes here, we're not spending 15 runs spending 10. We're spending three minutes here, review previous lesson. So notice that we're already getting into a review of what's been done before that means fluency drills rereading familiar text checking retention of learned words or concepts again, this is three minutes so taking a look at that time. Then the next one is introduce the new concept. This will be explicit Stacy was mentioning some of these elements this will be explicit direct teaching of new phoneme grapheme correspondence or letter pattern. Here we get to three to five minutes the time expands we're going to spend on this new concept, then provide guided practice. Look how quickly we get into doing the thing, right. This is teacher led, so again, very directly involved with students practice blending words Reading pattern based words, phoneme graphing, mapping, reading phrases and sentences. Full five minutes here, the doing full five minutes Now look underneath that provide extended practice. That's interesting. Word sorts word chains, word families, close tasks, timed reading of learned words, a further five minutes so that right there's 10 minutes, and being able to do the thing right to work with material. Then there's practice dictation. This is dictation of sounds, words, sentences, eight minutes. So that's another large section of the lesson. I'm almost to the end of the lesson. Connect to word meaning with phonics vocabulary, construct multiple meanings, web, locate words that have similar meanings or that go together, find the odd one out in a set of words, use two vocabulary words in a sentence, etc. There are many things you can do here, five minutes. And then lastly, but most importantly, because look at the time a lot, it's that's the other thing I want you to know. Even though it comes at the end of the instructional pieces, look at the time allotted for this read, text, very important breed text, read decodable text with a high proportion of words that have been taught eight minutes. So just because it's at the bottom of the list, doesn't mean that's least important. That means we've done the prep to get to the thing, the big thing so I think that's sometimes missed in phonics a lot of people say because never get to read it because never actually get into text. But I think it's because we're not really looking at the pieces and what they're telling us one crucial pieces time that's given to it. So
Lindsay Kemeny:and I think it's thank you so much, Darnell, I think it's also important to note that you don't have to do all of these components in this order all together in one sitting. So you can separate them a little bit I know that I hit all these components, but I do do them in different order. read text I'll do you know in my phonics lesson, I will do a little bit in whole group. But then my favorite time to do that is in small group where I can give, you know immediate corrective feedback. And and then, of course, we're reading texts throughout the day. So we do it lots of other places throughout the day too. And I like to start I kind of switch where she had phonemic awareness and then go into your review. I like to do the review first, and then I'm going to state my goal or purpose and then I'm going to go into this is a great place to put a sound while lesson we talked about that in a previous episode, because then I can just nicely bridge into my phonics after i We've kind of discussed that phoneme and and done a few activities with the phoneme is to always have any ideas for like, how do you review when it's talking about review? Previous ideas? What do you do for that,
Stacy Hurst:one of my favorite things to do is use a really important component of effective phonics instruction in my experience, is decodable text. And so I'll bring up decodable text from the the lesson or the skill before and every time that review what my main idea is a little bit different depending on how many times I've taught it, but we're finding words that match that pattern, or we read, you know, we're practicing fluency. And then I say, who remembers what pattern we learned about yesterday? Did you see a word that matches that pattern? And I think because, as done, I was reading those components, in my opinion. Second only to explicit instruction is application, and reading. And I know there are other activities that help build accuracy and automaticity. But actually doing the thing is really important.
Lindsay Kemeny:Sometimes we'll play a little game for review. Or when I taught kindergarten, one of my favorite things was to do the blending board, which is where I have you know, like three letters, I have cards, three stacks of cards, the beginning of the word, the medial the vowel and then the ending. And I would have my little kindergarteners read that word, blend the word and then I would change one card, and they would read that one and I changed one card. And what I really liked about this versus just a list of words for them to read that I had already prepared is that it really like, I feel like it really helps them understand the principle that just changing one letter completely changes the word. And so I really liked this activity, and they liked it too. So
Stacy Hurst:and you know, I love that anytime you can gamify or make something fun, they're going to be more invested and chances are better that it will get in their long term memory. Right.
Donell Pons:So one thing I've noticed with working with older students, is a lot of my older students, as I've mentioned before, have literacy demands that are beyond being in first grade, right? So I'm working with many adults who have literacy demands throughout the day, that are not the same In demands they're going to be doing in class with me or in a session with me, because I'm breaking it down. I'm starting from the beginning, I'm filling in blanks for them. And so a lot of the review that I like to do is taking large, larger units, like Stacy said, with a text, a text that was related to the skills that have been taught, and will work with larger text and then dial down onto a sentence, dial down onto a word. And what's really interesting is a lot of times my older students learn skills, but then when they get out on those large literacy and text demands when they're out in the working world, or school, that breaks down because they're asked to do such very difficult things. And so it can oftentimes feel like they're not really making progress. So I like to take them through when we do a review of if you're asked to write this sentence, you have some of these words that you don't understand, what's your approach, and we talk a lot about strategies and approach, calming yourself down, to remember that you do have skills. And we do a lot of that because it's just rethinking. I do know how to do this because they've spent so many years not knowing how to do this. So there's a lot of strategy for I think older students, younger students, too, but I think, in working with older students working on strategy is really important within phonics teaching phonics, it's
Stacy Hurst:almost sad that that we have to explicitly manage emotion. Related to that, it that,
Donell Pons:you know, Stacy, I like you mentioning that, because when you see a really good teacher in that K through three space, who has really excellent training, that's something that I noticed in their classrooms and with their students is a level of comfort and a level of there's just, there's everybody in there's feeling patient, I don't see people losing their cool little students losing their cool in that classroom, it's really interesting, and they have confidence, that they're gonna get answers and they're gonna be able to do things that's really that's so powerful in a classroom
Stacy Hurst:begets confidence, both as a teacher, when you're feeling confident, you exude that to your students.
Narrator:What are your challenges and success in creating effective, engaging phonics lessons, share your classroom experiences and questions with us. And join us again, for literacy talks to keep current with everything literacy, we invite you to email us at literacy talks at reading horizons.com. That's literacy talks at reading horizons.com. And our terrific trio of literacy experts will answer your questions and upcoming literacy talks podcast episodes.
Lindsay Kemeny:I think some of the other components of the lesson are pretty straightforward. You want to introduce that new concept, you know, and tell them what you're learning. Okay, we're learning another spelling for Oh, today, the spelling is Oh A, and you're going to model and show them how to read words with that you're going to have them read words with OA, you're going to have them write words with OAE. Perhaps one that might be a little harder for teachers to think of ideas is she has a section that says provide extended practice. And she's talking about word sorts where chains work families, closed tasks, timed reading of learned words. Do either of you feel like you're you're pretty good at that section and want to share some PSAs any ideas or tips?
Stacy Hurst:I don't know that I go right to pretty good. But but that is where I think are some of those activities we talked about. One of my favorites in the right context is very powerful, is that building words activity where you're manipulating letters. And this is another thing that I love that is part of that explicit phonics plan is phonemic awareness, because we've already taught students that if you change add to in a word like bit, you have bat, right, so now you're just making that more concrete, and they're manipulating letter tiles. And one of the really fun things that actually, again, in the right context, this came from the program that I used as part of the four blocks, but they had a mystery word at the end. So they had a whole lesson did the same thing. Yeah, and Reading Horizons actually does this in their spelling supplement. Now they have a building words activity, and they incorporated I think this piece I can't actually remember. But you're only using a certain number of letters for this activity. And it's very scripted, you know, change one letter in bat to spell bid, and they're doing that whole thing. But at the end, there is a mystery word that they can build if they use all the letters that you're using for that lesson. And that was so much fun to watch my first graders just engage in that and try to figure it out and the excitement when they did and so I think that was that's a fun one.
Lindsay Kemeny:And see that just shows like there are components, you know, from those, you know, balance literacy trainings and things that we did that are fine, but it was just that that was you know, supposed to be your instruction. That's not instruction. That's a great activity, but you also need the explicit, sequential fun Next, you know, lesson program to go with that.
Stacy Hurst:Context is everything and when anytime we're having these conversations about what to do in the classroom, without the theoretical underpinnings of the simple view of reading or Scarborough's reading rope, or Aries developmental stages, it's just easier to make decisions when you know those things and where these activities are gonna give you the biggest bang for your buck. Yep, Stacey
Donell Pons:on that I'd like to add, because I was just thinking, listening to the two of you talking about the activities and things. And then also how important it is to watch your students to see what maybe they're struggling with which pieces went down well, which pieces are still kind of rough, and then tailoring the activities, right, that's where that piece. So I may have a list of really great activities. But what I'm seeing my students do, maybe this activity is better for what I'm saying, maybe it's a fluency thing that I'm seeing. And so I'm gonna pick an activity. So that's that piece, when the teacher is really dialed in, to watching the students that you may have a list of things, you can pull out a toolkit, a toolbox, we've all got it. And then you're pulling the right tool for what you're seeing occur in your classroom at the time. So I'm not just going to go with this because I had it in my head. But that's what I really want to do, because it's fun, or I enjoy it or had a really good plan. But if I see something happening in the classroom, that's that piece where the teacher is, is really dialed into what the students are doing. That's part of structured literacy,
Stacy Hurst:you can't leave that out, I'm thinking about another really fun activity or word sorts. But you have to watch your students because some of them will just recognize the patterns. They're not reading the words out loud, and they're just sorting them as if they would sort, you know, animals in a zoo or whatever. So yeah, being really aware of how that activity is actually being processed in the brain of your students is helpful. What do you do?
Lindsay Kemeny:Well, I love doing a word sort. You know, we do it all together, and we have our whiteboards and for example, the sound at the end of a word. And so we're going to put up at the top, we're going to make like four columns, we're going to have K, we're gonna have k e, we're gonna have C K, we're gonna have just C. And then I'm gonna give him a word. And we're going to decide which column it would go in, what's the spelling like? Milk is just gonna have a K on there. And so we're gonna do that. And we're going to list our words, and then we're going to look at the pattern and see, oh, look, you know, why? How are all these with the CK the same? Let's look at that versus the KE versus just the que, you know,
Stacy Hurst:that's really important. Actually, Lindsey, I feel like, because anytime we do word sorts we need to revisit after we've sorted, we need to pull something, extract something from that, right. And there was a really popular program. I still hear a lot about it words their way we used it at my school, but my teachers quickly realized this is an activity, and the instruction is not so robust. But also that's when they realize students could sort anything, they're just looking for the pattern. But when you revisit it with a higher level thinking question, you know, then it causes them to really look into those words and read them.
Lindsay Kemeny:So when we're doing our phonics lessons, we're really you know, the focus is more on those lower strands of Scarborough's rope. But how can we hit the upper strands of Scarborough's rope in a phonics lesson?
Stacy Hurst:That's a really good question. Can I just say one thing too, in a phonics lesson, our first goal is accuracy. With the pattern right? Then we want proficiency? Or what we would call fluency. So that leads right into comprehension? Dunno, I feel like you have a ready answer for this. And I don't want to take it home.
Donell Pons:No, working with older students again. So all of it to me, you're all of it is supporting upper strands. I mean, I have no time not to think about upper strands for older students, because like I said, they have demands, literacy demands put on them that are well above maybe a lot of the instruction that you're receiving, because I'm going back, like I said, and filling in blanks, right? What does the older student need exactly what the younger student needs. So I'm not skipping steps by any means, right? And you're filling in and giving those students the opportunity to receive the instruction that they deserve and that they need it. But at the same time, I think we're always analyzing particularly with older students, we're always analyzing the words what we're doing, and we're analyzing small parts to gain meaning. So right vocabulary is is one of those structures of the upper strand. And you're analyzing those small parts to larger parts, adding and taking away producing meaning not just changing the the graphemes in the word right and impacting spelling, but also meaning and tying those two significantly together. And I like to talk about always going from small to big and big to small. We go both ways with my students. So we're looking to parts of a word to the whole word, to a sentence to a paragraph to a page. I like talking about this all the time because I use it all the time with my students and breaking down language that way. They've never had an opportunity to do that. I know that my students, when they approach a page, it is a blur to them literally for many different reasons. And we're making meaning out of that entire page for my students. So I'm always breaking down small to go large, large to go small. And what's interesting when you when you do that with your students, and you do it enough, consistently, that there's a lot of power in that and they start to take ownership of it, which is really interesting. And then they start to tell you how they find meaning. And that's really fun to be guided by your student about meaning, and to have literacy conversations, those are those higher strands, right, that start coming in. And then what you realize is they're very much connected. So if you're doing this, and it comes together, just right, and the clouds part and the sun is shining, is when you see how the lower strands and the upper strands, so not to different places. And then they go into that larger hole rope that we never really talked about with Scarborough that in the end, you end up with a really strong rope, they can put all your weight on, right, that's what we're really going after at the end is not just the strands that are coming together. But the whole thing when it's put together.
Stacy Hurst:Exactly. And I like that you mentioned that going from I mean, we start on the phoneme level than the grapheme. And then we go to the word level, but very quickly, sentence level, that's where syntax comes in. We can talk about that. I know in my work with English language learners, when I was the English language development teacher at my school, we had a lot of conversations about that all interwoven with phonics lessons, when we were focusing on all of that, one really fun activity that I've done recently, with a little girl that I had a chance to tutor this school year, we were reading decodable text that did not have pictures. And that obviously was intentional, because I wanted her focusing on the words on the page. But there was one sentence that I would always leave that we wouldn't read together that I wouldn't read it out loud. And I tell her, you read this and then draw a picture to represent what that sentence means. So we're focusing on meaning. But one was about sin, the pig, the picture was so cute. But those are the kinds of ways that we can focus on comprehension and check. Yeah, check how our students are thinking about what they're reading.
Donell Pons:In space. I think it's interesting, you mentioned, you know, with working with a younger student, having them draw a picture, there are many, and I'm not going to name because there's so many programs that use very similar techniques, I'll just say the technique overall. But when you're approaching a read, you can read the title of the raid, ask the student to get a visual image, what do you think's going to happen, all those things, those are the pre reading activities to prior to getting into the raid. So there's lots of ways in which you do approach a text and help a student to see it then stopping, you know, stopping and asking questions along the way. Another one, the retail that's so important, depending on how lengthy the passage is, and and chronological order being able to give all of those pieces. So there's lots of things we haven't touched on every single thing you can do with text or lots of things. But the big part is, is that when you have all of this within that toolbox, or toolkit, a lot of this is so very natural, your student doesn't even realize right. And when you get done with a text, the students had a great experience a little did they know there was instruction occurring? That's the best part, right? Is when they get done with a reading and go oh, that was a lot of fun. Had no idea. That was instruction. That's beautiful, right? When you get done with a text and you've had a fun instructional experience, and the student goes, that was just a blast. I just had a good time.
Stacy Hurst:But we're talking about what the meaning of it right?
Lindsay Kemeny:What do you do? Well, yeah, it's similar with the picture. So when we do our sentence dictation, they raise their hands, I come around, I'm walking around, and I'm checking once like, yes, their sentence is correct, then they get to do their picture. And they love that because it's a little bit of a reward. But one thing I just started this year was because I was thinking how can I pull in like that vocabulary or the meaning with my phonics lessons. And so after we dictate, like, you know, the students have written their words, and, and oh, it kind of depends on the lesson, but usually around six words, then I will say, okay, with your neighbor, they have little partners that they sit next to, can you think of a sentence that uses at least two of those words, or sometimes three, they love to try to fit in as many as they can. And that really gets them thinking about the meaning of the words and also like you were mentioning earlier, Stacy, the syntax right of a sentence. So that's really fun. So I know we are almost out of time. There's just one last thing I wanted to ask you guys and a lot of times phonics lessons. You know, people complain about them and say, Oh, it's drill and kill, drill and kill. And I love that Dr. Anita Archer says it can be drill and thrill and drill in skill and phonics lessons don't need to be boring. I do think there's a lot of power in having a routine every day. And I don't have a lot of behavior issues during my phonics lessons because they kind of know the drill and it's quick and they know their routines, and I feel like it's really safe for a lot of them because they know what to expect. That doesn't mean it needs to be boring. So what are ways that we could make phonics lessons more engaging?
Stacy Hurst:Well, I think I just can't really be very object active because the phonics program that I found as a result of reading the National Reading Panel, that hit checked all the boxes was Reading Horizons. So honestly, I have been using that method for the bulk of my career. And a big component in that is dictation. And students are really engaged in that. And I know I've trained teachers in that method, and worked with schools who have been implementing it. And when they have observations from their principals, I had a principal say to me once, you know, it took me three weeks of observations to realize that they were having me come in during phonics time intentionally, because one of the things that they're being observed is student engagement. And their students were engaged during that part of the day, and they knew it, they knew they would be so they were saying come during this part of the day. So I think you're right, it is drilling thrilled, because we're teaching them to be competent with it. So using a engaging strategy, like dictation, and we use whiteboards and students are pretty active with that. But I do honestly think too, there is a big part. And this is actually mentioned in the front matter of the Reading Horizons manuals. And that's a carryover from the original author. But the teacher has so much to do with that, if you're excited about it. They will be if they're young students, especially. Yeah, and if you're a word nerd, which i i totally
Lindsay Kemeny:all are. That's helpful. Yeah, I always think that to like, the teacher can bring so much enthusiasm to it. And that's just infectious. You know, they see my excitement, and how I'm excited about something, and that's going to rub off on them. Darnell, were you gonna say something?
Donell Pons:You know, it's interesting, because they say I have a similar I use the same program Reading Horizons, and it's elevate for older students work with the older student population. And what I love dictation, too, because they're so engaged, and they're always being successful. That's the other piece there. They are being successful very quickly. And I work with folks who have not been successful most of the time. And now they're being successful most of the time, if not all the time. And and certainly after just even a few weeks, we're being successful all the time. That's new. And boy, is that a rush, that is a rush, and talk about engagement. And I love this piece, Stacy, you mentioned it earlier about it shouldn't be the teacher's job to have to come up with really good instruction. And no more so than today. Because there's so much information, we have really good folks putting together excellent pieces of based on the science of reading and like you said, I'm not I'm not spending my time finding that I've got a really excellent program. And then I'm dialing into my student, and I'm fine tuning and I'm doing just what my student needs. It's freeing me up to be able to do that, which I love.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, and anybody who's ever tried to write decodable text knows what we're talking about. Yes. And when we
Lindsay Kemeny:you have a lesson there, then sometimes that's helpful, because you have a little more time to think how can I, what can I bring into this. So when you know, in Reading Horizons, they teach about the Guardian letter, and that's basically like a closed syllable. And that constant letter at the end is the guardian who's protecting the vowel to say it short sound. So when I teach that, you know, I bring in shield, and you know, kind of, I'm a little dramatic about it. So I'm gonna, I'm the Guardian and all of this, but just little elements like that, that don't need to take a lot of time are great. I've seen teachers give students old mandates with AU, AU and au W written on them when they learn the sound Owl and the spellings for that when I taught kindergarten, we had a wedding with QEMU. It was really fun. And we literally had someone carry the cue and someone carry the you down the aisle, and they have their little vowels. And you know, that's just a little silly, but the kindergarteners loved it. And then hopefully it's just helps them remember, you know that that cue and you stay together for the sound. So, anyways, lots of different ways that you can kind of bring that excitement and life to it. Well, thank you guys. I hope everyone listening, this gives you some ideas to bring some life into your phonics lessons. And this was a great conversation.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, thank you so much for that. Lindsay. I could talk about phonics all day long. It really was my segue into the science. I attributed that the National Reading Panel largely for that. And as we were talking about always attending the meaning. I know, when I first started teaching phonics, it was Valentine's Day, and I always asked my students questions about love, you know, while they're having their little Valentine's party, and I remember asking one little girl, what do you think the difference is between like and love, and she looked at me, so incredulously and she said, Love has a V in it, and like has IQ. So I think I was remiss in not focusing on the meaning there. So it's a good reminder. Yeah. So thank you all for joining us today. I hope you have liked what we talked about. Because we love having this conversation. See what I did there.
Lindsay Kemeny:But I see what you did. Yeah.
Stacy Hurst:Join us next time for another episode of literacy top Hi.
Narrator:Thanks for joining us today for literacy talks, the podcast series for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Literacy talks comes to you for Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Join us next time