Educator Knowledge: The Essential Element of Literacy Success

Educators’ knowledge about reading science, its’ practical applications in the classroom, and its impacts on students’ experience is core to literacy learning and success. In this episode of Literacy Talks, you’ll hear an open and solutions-focused conversation about teacher and administrator knowledge and steps every educator can take to understand the how’s and why’s of teaching reading to all learners. Join hosts Stacy Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Officer at Reading Horizons, Donell Pons, a recognized literacy and special education expert, and Lindsay Kemeny, a Utah-based elementary classroom teacher, for a memorable session. 

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Transcript

Narrator: 0:03

Hello literacy leaders and champions. Welcome to literacy talks, the podcast series from Reading Horizons dedicated to exploring the ideas, trends, insights and practical issues that will help us create literacy momentum. Our series host is Stacy Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Officer at Reading Horizons, where reading momentum begins. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education and Lindsay Kemeny, a Utah based elementary classroom teacher. Today's topic is educator knowledge about literacy, teaching and learning and its profound impact on students opportunities to succeed. Let's get started.

Stacy Hurst: 0:53

Welcome to another episode of literacy talks. I'm the host Stacey Hurst. And I'm joined by Donell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny, as I am every episode, and today's episode, for those of you who've been listening, while know that we take turns today is done else topic. So I'm just gonna let her introduce it.

Donell Pons: 1:14

Great. So this one I really view as the most conversation of the conversations because no one's really going to lead on this one, I think, and more, we're just going to talk about personal experience as educators for one that's going to inform this conversation a lot. And then Stasi, you've had some background in actually being part of conducting a survey of teacher knowledge that was part of your master's thesis. So that should be interesting for us to the personal experience you had just doing that kind of a survey of teachers. And then we're also going to be looking at a few pieces of information. And there are plenty of pieces of information out there about teacher knowledge. What we're talking about today is teacher knowledge, what does the teacher understand about how you teach reading, and I want to add, that is not just a teacher knowledge, but administrator knowledge, too. So that should be also kicking around in our thoughts and conversation as well. We may be referring to teachers quite a bit. But administrators having knowledge is equally important, because a lot of decisions are made at the administrative level, that impact teachers and what they can do as teachers in the classroom. So that should be part of what we're thinking about and discussing to what I'm hoping that as you're listening, either you're an educator, you have something to do with education, maybe you're a parent, you have children in the education system, I really want you to think about your own personal experience that all of us have had one Well, again, you could be a parent, you have not taught in a classroom, but you have had children, you have been in a classroom as a learner. And maybe you can even remember back to those early formative years when you were learning how to read. I have students who have dyslexia who are adults. And their memories of being in classrooms in the third and even second grade are very vivid because they struggled so much. And a lot of their memories are memories of sitting out in the hall, hour after hour, day after day. Because they were told, Oh, we'll get to you out in the hall you need you need additional help, and help never came, or having a principal walk down the hallway and say, Why are you sitting out in the hall again, and the student feeling guilty somehow it was their fault. Remember, there's an adult male student who who said, I have a lot of guilt, about why why wasn't learning as if it were my fault, and I'm a young kid. So this I want this to really be a conversation that gets us thinking in a lot of different ways. When we talk about teacher knowledge and administrator knowledge, how important that is, what we're really talking about is how much it impacts every level of the learning experience for students. And then furthermore, we're talking about reading. And that's the most important skill as we know. So this is going to be, I hope, a really interesting conversation for folks. What got me thinking was a recent study. So I want to just bring a couple of pieces of information in and then we'll move on to having conversation. There's a thing called the annals of dyslexia. It's a little publication that comes out by the International Dyslexia Association. We'll include it in the show notes. And this one came out and it's the April 2022 edition. And it has in here a little thing called characterizing the knowledge of educators across the tiers of instructional support. It's a fantastic little read. And it's just an update. Many of these, like I said have been done for years and done in different states. This one focuses on one state, but it talks just about teacher knowledge about how you teach reading. That's essentially what the study is about. And it's really interesting read, then I went online, and there's another interesting one that's from the Texas Education Agency. I like this one because it's free. Some of these are behind a paywall. This one is free. And it also talks about teacher knowledge of early literacy skills. What's nice about this one from the Texas Education Agencies, it lists some of the questions that are asked of educators about how you teach reading, so you get to see what was asked and then the responses and how many responded correctly. So that's interesting. First off, just kind of laying that groundwork. I want to ask Stacy, your experience, why did you choose to look at this topic for your master's thesis?

Stacy Hurst: 5:11

That is a great question. And honestly, it's been a long time since I started on that. But I was always interested in I think, probably because I graduated with a reading endorsement. When I got my bachelor's degree, my teaching license, I already had an endorsement and reading. And I think it was just a result of feeling disappointed that I didn't know what I needed to to teach reading. And you would think that somebody that graduates with a reading endorsement is extra prepared to teach reading. And the first classroom I taught in was first grade. That's a pretty critical year. And then I think I've shared this on this podcast before as well. Our university was shown, I believe it was on the end CTQ survey that we addressed all of the elements of reading that you should have. So I was interviewed by a reporter. And I think more than anything, it was probably because of that interview. And my thought process, the whole time I was being interviewed, I wanted to represent my university well, but I really kept thinking, I didn't learn these things in college. Everything that I know, is the result of research that I've read since I graduated, and, frankly, practice and applying it. So I think that's where my interest in that began, just noting the discrepancy between what I learned in college and what I needed to know to actually be effective reading teacher,

Donell Pons: 6:57

and Lindsay, we've had this conversation before, and you've been really open and honest, you know, that's what that's what we do here, right? We're all sharing, we hey, look, these are the things I used to do. These are things I now do. These are things I hope that I am able to do. Why don't you share with us too, because you had an interesting journey as well, that you've kind of shared before, about you graduated with the knowledge that you had, and you thought you knew, and then hitting a classroom and realizing where there's a lot, I don't know, and then receiving maybe some misinformation and getting back on the track with correct information.

Lindsay Kemeny: 7:28

Yeah, because teacher knowledge is everything. And I can see that difference. So clearly, in my own instruction. And I always love to read growing up, I was reader. And so I and I love teaching reading. And so my early years of teaching, that was always my favorite thing to teach, even though when I look back, I really wasn't teaching it. I was facilitating reading opportunities in my classroom, but I wasn't really explicitly teaching my students how to read. So I had some knowledge. But even a lot of the knowledge that I had learned, I later found out was wrong. So I was just really, you know, heavily trained in the three queueing system, which has a theory on breeding that has been completely debunked. And so I was really upset. When I found out all those years I was teaching those strategies, I was teaching those students to read like a poor reader instead of a proficient one. And so I just saw such a different so when I had to seek out the information, and raise my own teacher knowledge, right in reading, and it was so just amazing to see the difference. Because now I understood what to do. And I had a clear path when when a student is struggling to learn how to read, I know what to do. And if I am using a program in my classroom, I know like little tweaks and adjustments to make to it, because I have the teacher knowledge, you know, and I can kind of you have to be flexible things like that with if something's not working in your classroom or a student's not getting something you have to be able to, you know, the teacher knowledge is what helps you Oh, I'm going to shift and I'm going to try this and do this and kind of change the lesson a little bit sometimes. So anyways, I just think teacher knowledge has made the biggest difference in my teaching is when I had got better information.

Stacy Hurst: 9:25

And if I could also add to that and add maybe part two to the answer to your question, Danelle, like Lindsey is saying it wasn't just a matter of knowing that knowing what I learned from reading the research and really recognizing things like how phonics should be taught, raised my confidence as a teacher, because I think knowledge has that impact anyway, but it also raised the results I got from my students and that was very clear and in the case of phonics instruction for me at the time. It was very immediate, especially compared to Do a lot of things that people were trying. And by the time that I was interviewed by that reporter, I was a literacy coach. And so I had also had that experience of helping teachers apply that information in their classroom. And again, seeing those results compared to the ways that we have been taught to read. So my affinity for teacher knowledge grew a lot. But very quickly, I learned knowledge is essential. Just like Lindsay just said, knowledge, teacher knowledge is everything. But it's the way that impacts practice. That is the determiner about how well our students do.

Donell Pons: 10:39

Right. And so I would add to that, that's why one training session in something one three day this one five day, that is not enough. Because as you say, we gained some knowledge, lay a foundation for something and practice, right. And then also ongoing instruction as to what is occurring. So there's a lot to that we've, we've covered very quickly in talking about it, a lot of things that take time, right, and support and growth and continued input in order to to really reach that level of instruction, where a teacher is just so proficient, that they can handle whatever's occurring in the classroom. So I think that's important, too. We may be saying these things quickly, but we understand they take time. And that's been something I don't think a lot of folks have been willing to invest in education and specifically in educators, is knowing that this is a lifelong learner teacher is and they should be treated as such. When you're treated as such, that means you're provided with the opportunities and support to do so. Right. I

Stacy Hurst: 11:37

love the way you said that. And if you don't mind, I would just like to emphasize it's the same way we talked about the science of reading as a body of knowledge, and a convergence of evidence. It's the same thing in our teacher microcosms, right? You don't just learn one thing, in isolation. Teacher knowledge means you are gaining knowledge and practice and refinement and adding more throughout your career. It is not a one shot thing by any stretch.

Lindsay Kemeny: 12:12

There's so many layers, I feel like you know, and I mean, I haven't even been, you know, studying the science of reading as long as you guys but it's been four years. And I feel like I've learned so much. And there's still so much to learn. And so it just has to be this constant investments, you know, you just need to be a lifelong learner.

Stacy Hurst: 12:32

Yeah. And to recognize that we don't know what we don't know. Yeah,

Donell Pons: 12:36

so I just want to quickly add, because my background is a little different from both of you. I wasn't teaching in the early grades, and there's been a real heavy emphasis, and rightly so on K through three, because those are those primary grades, if we can do a fantastic job, have excellent teaching in that K through three space, then we won't have students who are continuing on to struggle, or we'll have fewer students who will need help and support therefore, we could meet their needs rather than having a large population that has needs and so we can't meet anybody's needs. And so what I think is interesting, and I want people to also, if you're working in an older student space, I often get asked the question, well, then what should we know if we're working with older students? What's what's our knowledge? What should we know? The same things? Right? So Dr. David Kilpatrick that we've referred to, many times in the podcast, who's done a fantastic job of pulling together 30 plus years of reading research and helping to disseminate it in some books that he's put together. And, again, if this is not David Kilpatrick's research, because we want to be clear, we understand that it's David Kilpatrick's, looking at 30 plus years of research, and helping us to understand a lot of those studies in the material that he has written. And within that, David Kilpatrick has always has usually been asked this question, his response always is, hey, if you're teaching older students, what do they need to know the same things younger students need to know there's not a different pathway to reading. The thing about an older student is they're being asked to do a lot of things in their day to day that are literacy advanced, that maybe a younger student wouldn't be faced with, because they're adults. And so you have to recognize that within your context of your education and teaching. The other thing is you can move more quickly with some concepts because they're adults, right? So those are just a couple of things in pacing, how the instruction goes. But knowing that we need the same knowledge. So if I'm holding a K through three teacher, to hold a certain body of knowledge, I'm doing the same thing for myself, if I'm working with older students, I need to have that same knowledge. So that when I have an adult learner, or an older student come into my classroom who's struggling with literacy, that I have the skills and ability to be able to recognize and address those needs for that student. So I think that's really important to emphasize, too. Let's take a look. I want to kind of dive into some of these knowledge surveys. And one of the things I thought was interesting is probably doesn't surprise either view, Lindsay or Stacy, but I want your thoughts on it. When looking at the study that we're on in the annals of dyslexia, put out by the International Dyslexia Association, the abstract for this particular one that started out characterizing the knowledge of educators across the tiers of instructional support, some great researcher names are associated with it, they made some statements in the abstract that said, reading interventionist demonstrated greater knowledge than classroom teachers and special educators in the total proportion of correct responses on teacher knowledge surveys about reading, and across each domain, does that surprise either of you?

Stacy Hurst: 15:22

It doesn't surprise me after years of looking at data, the students in those settings that are in need of intervention present, to use the medical term with the greatest need. So the teachers who are most directly working with them try to get to the bottom of it, and they have the luxury of focusing on a smaller number of students ideally, however, what we do see is that the reason a lot of those kids are needing that support is because of what the general education is lacking. Absolutely.

Lindsay Kemeny: 15:55

So it doesn't surprise me either. But I wish it were different. The interventionist only has to be learning and focusing about reading where the general education teacher has a million other things that they're teaching throughout the day, and dealing with and whole class management, and all the things right. But I feel like a knowledgeable general education teacher can do so much. I mean, they are with those students so much longer than the interventionist. And when I had a couple years as an interventionist, I just remember being frustrated, because, you know, I'm only with them for like, 30 to 60 minutes. And I could see the difference in growth between the ones that had a strong general education kind of tier one thing going on, versus the ones where it was weaker, you know, and so that's why I love being a general education teacher, I feel like I can do so much good, you know?

Donell Pons: 16:47

Absolutely. So I'm going to read a couple more statements and fill in and then we'll have even more robust conversation about this. The next sentence says, classroom teachers demonstrated greater knowledge than special educators in phonological sensitivity and decoding, but did not differ from each other. In phonemic, awareness, encoding or morphology knowledge, special educators provide intervention to students with the most severe forms of reading disabilities, yet they had the lowest level of knowledge. So now we've just broken down three different individuals that you might find in a school, hopefully, you'll find them in the school, the reading interventionist seem to have demonstrated the greatest level of knowledge about how you teach reading and what to do. The classroom teacher was just beneath that demonstrating greater knowledge than the special educators, though, this is really interesting to me. Because special education, we're supposed to be getting the most intense, we're supposed to have the most highly trained the most specifically trained individuals, and so I had to spend certification. And also the number one reason a student's going to be in special education is a reading difficulty. We know that too, statistically, from our statistics in some states have very high statistics of students in special education with reading difficulties, yet they're the least even less than a classroom teacher, as you say, Lindsey, who has a lot of demands on what it is that they know when that they're doing in their day. I found that to be perhaps the most interesting, what do you guys think?

Stacy Hurst: 18:06

Well, I'm wondering, do they have less like out of those three profiles? The reading interventionist has the most narrow focus reading, right? Special Education and I've been part of so many of those IEP meetings as have both the view that a lot of times the goals or the focus could be on things like math or behavior, and so it's a little bit more spread out the focus, perhaps.

Narrator: 18:40

Want to learn more about the power of sound walls in early literacy learning? Check out the webinars featuring literacy talks podcast hosts, Stacy Hirst, Lindsey Kemeny and Donald pons, as they introduce sound walls and their impact on speech to print instruction, go to reading horizons.com/events to watch these and other Reading Horizons webinars.

Lindsay Kemeny: 19:05

I've spoken to a lot of special education teachers who have complained that they were not taught any of this about the science of reading or reading or dyslexia, any of this and Danelle I you know, usually I think they say they they're focused on the law in their programs. So Donella asking you did you have, you know, when you got your was a master's, right, in special education? Did you have a reading course.

Donell Pons: 19:28

So I had no reading courses, but I had several law courses, and in fact, had a really close relationship. One of my professors was a law professor, and we had great conversations. Because that was the focus was the law. Absolutely. Yet when you hit your first special education setting, the thing I was confronted with day in, day out, number one, reading difficulties, and yes, there could be other challenges. And a lot of students who struggled with reading struggled with Math. And that was dyscalculia and dyslexia together, but those terms were never used or said, but that's exactly what I was looking at. And in fact, one of the first settings that I was brought in and did some work, there was a student who was in fourth grade. And they were bringing in some district specialists to have a meeting. And the decision out of that meeting, and I still remember it to this day, was that they were going to say that this young man was simply a non reader. And that was actually something that you could state. Well, we've decided, since he's had Wilson, some Wilson intervention and just isn't responding that he's just going to be a non reader. That was the conversation. And I didn't know you could say that, that a student was just going to be a non reader later, I would learn that that isn't what we do. But mind you, I'd had all that training, and I'm sitting in a meeting. And that would be new for me to even know that I should have known that leaving a program should have known that there was more to be done, and that calling that student a non reader wasn't something that we should be doing. Right.

Stacy Hurst: 20:57

You know, as the two of you were talking about that I've been thinking about my time in schools. And as a literacy coach, you work closely with the special educators. But as I'm thinking about the difference between how we spent our time and I had the luxury of being able to, I had to manage a lot of things, right intervention groups and training for my paraprofessionals. And how all of that works in it in a MTSS framework. My special education colleagues were just as busy. But I think the majority of their time was spent with paperwork, and management, managing those special education settings and their own paraprofessionals. And, and yes, they did work with students too. But they have a lot of other things to do. So it's kind of making sense why that data showed that now to clarify, too, and I just skimmed it, which laughably I'm really good at because I don't have as much time to really digest as I'd like. But the study in that in the annals of dyslexia was conducted in just one state. Yeah, this is one state. And again, because I did my master's thesis on this, and all of those studies in their lit review, mine would be overlap immensely. And you noticed, it's still converging. I wasn't surprised by the numbers. I loved the way that the researchers approached the data in disaggregating, who was responding to the survey. And we did use a similar survey, I used a previous version of the one they used for my research. But I don't think I aggregated I did by grade level teachers. Yes, I did. But not special education, or Yeah, but that is fascinating to me.

Donell Pons: 22:54

And what was really interesting is, and they in this research that they do is, of course, and discussion as well, which was interesting, and I highly recommend that portion. Within that discussion. It was brought up that within special education, how much more important it would be for the special educators to have that kind of specialized training and understanding of reading not only because it's the number one reason a student will be in special education. And in the state of Utah, we lead the nation for many years for students in special education. And the reason on for that would be reading reading difficulty. So and I know we're not alone, many states have very high numbers. So it would not only be important for them in order to intervene, but writing the goals on those IPs, the goals are everything. And how can you make an appropriate goal when you don't understand the difficulty. And the goal has everything to do with the intervention. So it's everything, having that knowledge to be able to do the entire job of what's happening in special education, and having that specialized knowledge. That's why I don't want to see special educators left behind in this conversation. I've heard a lot of discussion about K through three and general teachers. So what we're saying really, I think what we're coming to in this conversation is no one can be left behind out of this conversation, in terms of teacher knowledge, they all need to be brought along. So there's no one group that's more important than another in having this background and understanding. It takes all of the positions in a school and within a classroom that are going to interact with students. To have that knowledge base. We talked about teachers and administrators. And when we're talking about teachers, we're talking about a lot of different roles that teachers fill, whether that be special education, it's reading intervention, it's general classroom teacher, and what we're finding from studies like this and others is they're all important.

Lindsay Kemeny: 24:40

And I would just add that we need the teacher knowledge, but that is not enough. Because teachers need the supports to be able to, you know, apply all the things they're learning and I think that is a problem that we're seeing right now where a lot of teachers are, are attending wonderful trainings, but then they go back to their classroom and They don't have the support they don't need, they don't have a good program to help them. And so they just, you know, it's really easy to fall back into what you were already doing. So we can't just provide our teachers with trainings, but we need to add, you know, effective programs and supports with that.

Donell Pons: 25:16

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, Lindsey, I think that is so important. I've attended many trainings. And every summer I'm sure every educator has some sort of training that's going to happen this summer, right? And how many of those I attended myself, but it was on me, as Stacey had mentioned before, it was on me to make sure that I not only received the training, but then what was I going to do with it? I'm so glad we're opening this conversation up. And there are many states, it's going to be uncomfortable, a lot of pieces are going to be clunky as we move forward. But we've been talking about legislation that's been happening. And that is one way of moving things forward. Not everybody's going to be happy about what's in the legislation, but at least it is pushing, it's going to be pushing things forward. I think the next thing we need to do is be very aware of what's in that legislation. As educators, you know, anyone who's got a stake in this? And I would say that's everyone. That's absolutely everyone has a stake in this to keep their eye on what's happening in your current state with reading, because it is everything in terms of even the health of your state, right, and the economy of your state, as we know. So this conversation that we're having, I think is much broader. As we stated from the beginning, when we were talking in the beginning and saying I think this is going to be a broad conversation about how much teacher knowledge really does impact. Absolutely everything within the school and without outside of the school as well. In addition, so closing thoughts we're getting I know this is kind of flown by for me, I noticed that the time ticking by and thinking, oh my goodness, we didn't even get halfway through the conversation one and a half. But just to close up and have closing thoughts. So for folks out there who have been listening in there may be saying, Where do I start with this? You know, I'm an educator, maybe I'm an educator and a school or maybe I'm a parent who realizes that there should be more what can I do? What's something that I can do? And Lindsay, you mentioned a few things, Stacy, maybe you have some ideas, too. I'd like your thoughts. What can I do to help with this? Or be a part of it? If I don't know where to start? Where should I start any thoughts or ideas for someone out there,

Lindsay Kemeny: 27:16

just take the first step, one step at a time, don't get overwhelmed one class at a time, one book at a time, one podcast episode at a time.

Donell Pons: 27:26

And Lindsey, I'd like to add to that because at your school, you've been a real sort of, you know, I want to say magnet for one thing people are drawn because you're very vocal about going through the process. And so I just want to kind of point out what you've done. That's been interesting, and maybe others that could be drawn to the similar situation. within your school, you've been very open about going on this journey of learning more and having greater understanding. I think as a result of that many people have come to you to say, Oh, I'm on the journey. I'm reading this, or I'm doing this, what do you think? And there's conversation that's really important. And the kind of networking that happens. It's important.

Lindsay Kemeny: 28:01

Absolutely. I love when people reach out. And you know, and I reach out to and we share ideas and talk. And yeah, I've been vocal. And I've had to be vulnerable, because I learned that I was doing things the wrong way. Right. So I love being able to share some of the things I've learned because I've had some really neat opportunities. So I like being able to, you know, present to others, as well as just those informal conversations. I just so passionate, I see the difference in my students, as well as you know, my own son that I just want everyone to have this knowledge. It's just I don't know, it's a drive.

Donell Pons: 28:40

Yeah, well, that's what it's all about. And then Stacey, you're in a unique position, I want you to speak to being at the level of the teacher program. So you're in a teacher education program. And you've been really I've been I've just been fun to be a part of your journey in setting up courses that really do state exactly what you're doing with the science of reading. And that may be different for some of these teacher education program settings.

Stacy Hurst: 29:06

Yeah, I I'm thinking so many thoughts. And like every topic we address on this podcast, I could go on forever about this. One thing that I've had the opportunity to do is continue my research, so to speak, I give the same survey to my pre service teachers every semester that I gave when I conducted my master's thesis research. In my master's thesis, I separated pre service teacher knowledge and in service teacher knowledge. And there were some interesting differences. But by and large, they were very similar. And I'm already seeing in my data that my students are graduating. Again, it's one major I don't want to get the impression that we have solved all the problems, but that my students are graduate Reading with more knowledge than some teachers who had been teaching for 820 years. And so I guess in that way, also my data right now is kind of a mess. And I'm I'm being vulnerable and saying if there's anybody that wants to help me aggregate that I would love to meet with you and learn from you. So but the other thing I want to add to that is the opportunity to reflect. And a data gives us the chance to do that. But personally, as a teacher, in these surveys, for example, one question that they, they ask, and they they separate the questions, the survey is beautiful. They separate them into two categories, generally speaking, one is knowledge. And one is application sense. So, for example, teachers can define a phoneme, they can recognize the definition of a phoneme, but then when they're asked to tell you how many phonemes are in the word box, most teachers have gotten it wrong. So there is that opportunity to reflect on that. But as a teacher, myself, I remember thinking, what did I know? How would I have answered the same questions, my first two, three years of teaching. And that is what I think that thing that helps me to know that this converging body of knowledge happens within our own brains, too. And we just add to what we know, to the point that it does become easier for us to respond to student needs. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take a minute to reflect and ask ourselves the questions. How far have I come? What have I noticed now, compared to before I knew this particular thing? And then also, what do I want to learn next, because I am so impressed with the educators who never stop learning. And they're always obsessed or focused on one aspect of, of teaching or learning to read. So there's a lot there, I envision a day, when we're talking about this kind of teacher knowledge. And the three tiers, just imagine this 80 to 85%, read, by research accounts, 95% of our students, by the end of first grade, can be reading on grade level. So our support, people who are crystal critical, obviously, like our special educators, and our reading, interventionist, can focus on the students who need it the most, and to our point, that they need more of the same thing or more intensity of the same thing. So is it classroom teacher, I don't have the time to do that. But we can work as a system and give every student what they need. And you know, going back to the equity conversation, this is it's a human right, in the society we live in.

Donell Pons: 32:56

Absolutely. I think that's great. Gosh, I appreciate both those answers, I wish we had more time because they're fantastic to even unpack that. But one thing I wanted to close with just just adding, I have told before that I work with the older student, and their stories. So this is the part we're going to bring all this wonderful information to where it really matters. And that is we're talking about human beings here, the outcome is it's a human life, right? That either is enriched, because they get this skill that is so important to everything else they're going to do, or it is a burden they carry. And oftentimes I meet the individual where it has been an absolute burden that they have carried, and it changes the trajectory of their lives. So that's the importance of this conversation we're having is life changing. As Stacey said, it's a human right, to have this ability to receive the kind of instruction you need to become a reader. And as long as that skill is as important as it is, and it continues to be, then we definitely need to provide it for everybody, as you say a human right. And I just want to close with folks remembering this one particular student who has been so vocal, he's, he's older now. And we have many conversations, and he's been with me for a few years, and has improved dramatically, and it's changed so many aspects of his life. But the last time we met his mother has thankfully had a long life. So she is still alive to have these conversations with him. But he said he and his mother have now been able to sit down and have conversations to understand better what they went through as a child to a parent who struggled with reading and never received the help they needed. And he said, we've been able to close that gap of hurt feelings and concern and difficulty, as she has watched me be able to pick up this skill that she worked so hard and was unable to give me and he's been able to heal that wound, so to speak with his mother. And that's really what we're talking about how important this is. So it was a teacher survey conversation, but it has been so much wider than that. And I appreciate your conversation. This was fantastic. Thanks, you guys.

Stacy Hurst: 34:48

It's bigger than numbers. Right? And of course I of course I love this topic. Also in my thesis, I made the comment that there are two kinds of readers, which is oversimplifying it I'm sure Those who take reading for granted and those who don't. And so, I hope that through this conversation and all of our efforts to be learners first, that we increase the number of humans who take the ability to read for granted. Thank you guys, as ever, great conversation. And thank you all for joining us. We will be happy to have you next time on our next episode of literacy talks.

Narrator: 35:32

Thanks for joining us today for literacy talks, the podcast series for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Today's episode was all about educator knowledge. And if you're eager to keep learning about literacy, check out the webinars now available for you to watch at reading horizons.com/events And keep listening to literacy talks brought to educators everywhere from Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins