Teaching is an art, and yes, it’s a science as well. In this episode of Literacy Talks, our three literacy experts talk about both the art and science of teaching. They unpack the need for educators to apply strategic learning science to instructional methods to ensure all students have optimum opportunities to learn. Our hosts talk movingly about the art of teaching, and the deep-rooted sense teachers have about knowing their students and their individual needs. It’s an enlightening and affirming look at today’s classroom practice, giving us even more appreciation for the work teachers do every day.
Subscribe to our Literacy Talks podcast digest and never miss an episode! We’ll send you summaries of every session, links to the resources discussed on each show, and some extra goodies so that your learning never stops.
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Teaching is an art, and yes, it’s a science as well. In this episode of Literacy Talks, our three literacy experts talk about both the art and science of teaching. They unpack the need for educators to apply strategic learning science to instructional methods to ensure all students have optimum opportunities to learn. Our hosts talk movingly about the art of teaching, and the deep-rooted sense teachers have about knowing their students and their individual needs. It’s an enlightening and affirming look at today’s classroom practice, giving us even more appreciation for the work teachers do every day.
Subscribe to our Literacy Talks podcast digest and never miss an episode! We’ll send you summaries of every session, links to the resources discussed on each show, and some extra goodies so that your learning never stops.
Subscribe to our podcast digest.
Download the new Reading Horizons Discovery Product Guide.
Access the show notes.
Read the transcripts.
Hello literacy leaders and champions. Welcome to literacy talks. We are so excited to welcome you to this podcast series from Reading Horizons dedicated to exploring the ideas, trends, insights and practical issues that will help us all improve our professional practice in teaching reading. Our series host is Stacy Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Officer of Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education. And Lindsay Kemeny, a Utah based elementary classroom teacher. Today's topic, the art and science of teaching. Let's get started.
Stacy Hurst:Welcome, everyone to another episode of literacy talks. Joining me today, as always, is Lindsay Kemeny and Donell pons. And today, we are going to talk about the meaning of a phrase that I think those of us in education may have heard many times. And it is this the art and science of teaching. So I really have no fancy leader, but I am really looking forward to the conversation that I'm going to have with you guys. So I'm going to start by asking each of you, what does that phrase mean to you? So Lindsay, let's start with you.
Lindsay Kemeny:Well, when I think of the science of teaching, I think of research, I think of solid things we know, you know, there's this evidence base that we can build our approaches on. And then when I think of the art of teaching, I think of a few things, I think of how you connect with your students, your instructional delivery, those split moment decisions a teacher makes and a lesson, how she looks at our students and sees if her instruction is having the desired effect, how she makes it engaging and effective. And her pacing and all those things I kind of think, go together into the art of teaching.
Stacy Hurst:That is well said, I don't know what do you think?
Donell Pons:Okay, got me thinking about this one, because you hear the phrase, often, when you're talking about education. And I looked up, it was interesting, the Yale Center for Education, they have a website, and they have a whole article on the art of teaching. And one of the phrases out of it says every successful teacher is an artist. Doesn't that sound just wonderful. And then it goes on to detail that the science of teaching describes how this is what they're saying how teaching should go. The art suggests the unique way, teaching unfolds as a teacher pursues These and other practices. So it's kind of along the same lines is what Lindsay was thinking to. And so we're thinking of the science as the nitty gritty, that's involved in the how we're teaching. And then the art suggests the unique ways in which we teach with reading. It's very interesting. I think, I love that we're having this conversation, because it's particularly important to understand where science and the art of teaching come together in a classroom, I think, yeah,
Stacy Hurst:I'm glad you said that. Because I think often about a lot of things that Louisa Mote says actually, but one thing that she's mentioned frequently is that as a profession. And I do believe this is changing, we have had entire podcast episodes on books and things that guide teaching, the teaching of reading. But historically, and Lindsey, if we think back even to when we were in the classroom, and fully embracing balanced literacy, there were no seminal works that I knew of that we could refer to. So whether you're talking about science or knowledge, there wasn't a body of work that we learned as a pre service teacher, in the same way that maybe a medical student starts with Grey's Anatomy. And that is the actual term, right? It's not just the TV show. They have this this body of knowledge or the seminal works that they refer to and the way that we were taught to approach teaching and specifically teaching reading. There weren't a lot like I could say, classroom management, maybe, but it wasn't really research based. It was a popular book is what it was. It was Harry Wong. I don't know. Did you guys learn that? Yeah. It was just a lot of cool things put together in a palatable way. So I think there's a lot that goes into that phrase, when you guys both talked about the art being the application part of it. Can you think of some specific examples that you've seen the art of teaching.
Lindsay Kemeny:Yeah, I can think of some because for example, I think you're with the art of teaching, you're being really reactive, you're really understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your students. Right. And so just today, one of my students had, like a little altercation with someone at recess. And so he came in was sitting at the carpet, I knew that had happened. And he was still a little emotional, like trying to calm himself down, right? So as I'm doing kind of call response, activity, he's not responding. So I know, you know, maybe normally for another student, I'm going to do a little tap to be like, oh, I need everyone saying it. But at this moment for this student, like he just if I had, like, said his name or something and said, Oh, I don't hear you, he just would have broken down. Okay. So I just think sometimes it's knowing when to push and when, when not to. Sometimes you do, you know, like, for phonics, we might start with a little review. And sometimes I do the review, and oh, my goodness, like half the class doesn't remember this? Well, okay, I'm changing my instruction right now, then, because I've got to go over that a little bit, you know, more in depth before we go on to our next concept. So sometimes you're teaching and you're like, Oh, well, I can tell they're getting a little restless, or this is going really slow. So I've got to change pace, or we've got to do a turn and talk or we got to break it up somehow. So I think those are a few examples.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, that is a good example. You're constantly assessing. And so based on your knowledge and experience, you can react or respond to that in ways that you know, will be effective. As you were talking, I have one class, this is unusual for the classes I teach. They're really quiet. And so when I ask a question to the whole class, crickets, I will say there's one kid and I hate it when he's absolutely. No, I can count on him to respond. But when I do things like say, Turn and talk, or I want you to think about this and write it down or just something different, then I get that out of them. So I just thought it was funny because usually college students are pretty talkative. It's an unusual class.
Lindsay Kemeny:My class this year is very talkative. So it's like you given them, you give them an inch, and they go a mile, you know, they just so any question, they're all Ooh, they all have so much to say,
Stacy Hurst:That's a fun problem to have to write. I think it was funny how we adjusted that, because the class I was talking about as well. Now I'm in the habit, I rarely ask a question out loud to the whole class, I just start with turning talk. We don't even that's a good example, don't know, what are you thinking of in the way of the art being applied,
Donell Pons:I was just thinking of going through a teacher training program. And the term with it, NES was used a lot. And I think the with it NES, really, they were referring to the art of teaching. And that is just being aware, like Lindsey has mentioned, being aware of your students, you get to know them. And so over time you pick up on the cues that they're giving you, you're able to pace yourself. So you'll hear we hear a lot in teaching, reading this idea of how do I know the pace? How do I set the pace for what I'm teaching? And that takes teacher witness. That's a blending of science and art. And so to give somebody a very firm, definitive answer, you're going to be here on Monday, you're going to be here on Wednesday, particularly with teaching reading, that is impossible to do. But that's where the art and science come together as a really well trained teacher who's well informed has a good coach, even we're hearing a lot about coaching to help with many teachers, we have these reading coaches and I see them across the country is, it's a really nice thing to see somebody else coming into the classroom who has experienced being in other classrooms to to bring that level of knowledge about the material that you're teaching. But then there's no replacement for the teacher in the classroom who's been with those students who knows their needs, and understands when they see like Lindsey does across the room and can tell when this is going to work for that one. This isn't going to work for that one. And they do it so effortlessly. It really is art. It's like watching a nice ballet or something when someone's got all the moves down. I mean, I've just an experience today with adult students, adult learners. And even though we've been in a zoom situation, I can still pick up on those cues. As a teacher, you just find ways to find those cues, even though we're not personally together, even through zoom. I know those students, I know what I'm seeing. I know what I'm hearing. That's that's the witness the art piece coming in together with the science, I think, yeah,
Stacy Hurst:being able to respond in the moment. I love that you brought up zoom, because I think we've all learned different behaviors surrounding that. That very class I'm talking to you about we had on Zoom instead of face to face. And they were so willing to respond in the comments. Most of them actually no surprise to you. From what I've already told you. The one kid who always answered me. His zoom camera was the only one that was on. So I felt like he and I were just having a conversation But in the chat, I gave them lots of opportunities to engage and respond that way. And they were just, it seemed like so much more willing, I never would have thought about that before. When you're on Zoom, and you realize I have to do a little bit, maybe more or something different to keep these students engaged, then you do you dig in, you learn, if you don't know, and then you'll apply. I also appreciate that you mentioned pacing, because that is something you can learn about attention span, you can learn about anticipatory sets or ways to pull your students into that lesson and how to keep it moving. But until you do it until you apply it, you're really limited.
Lindsay Kemeny:I love having a perky pace. And so I've had a lot of people come in and kind of see, oh, you have a quick pace. But it is it's like this art of seeing how quick you can do it with that class, but still have everyone with you. And you don't want to go too slow, because then it's not as engaging. And I just remember, my principal came in to observe me last year, and had commented, you know, they fill out these observation forms. And, you know, had commented, I was a little worried because, you know, you had a very quick pace, but when I looked around every single student was right with you, and engaged. And so it is, it's something that's kind of gets better over time, and you perfect it, you know, the more you practice,
Stacy Hurst:that is so true. That's the thing I tell my pre service teachers all the time, they notice they feel that pacing isn't quite there. And they feel when they're getting better at it. But I tell them, you really just have to do it for a while. And then I don't know if you guys would agree with this. Because you can have different situations in different instructional settings. I wouldn't say I'm a master at pacing yet.
Lindsay Kemeny:It's like every year might be different or every even every day, because one student is struggling this day. And and isn't with you,
Donell Pons:you know. And I will say I'll add to what you're saying I'll I love all this conversation about pacing. And I will add the perky pace, you know that Lindsey, you kind of brought up the perky pace, and I'm all about the perky pace too. I've sat in too many classrooms where things are moving just too slowly. Later, the teacher will say something like, well, I want to make sure everybody's with me, the problem is no one was any longer with you, because they had kind of shut down. And particularly with the information that you're giving, you want to keep it coming in a steady stream. So the engagement is there. I call it the steady stream. So it might feel perky to somebody else. But it's more a steady stream. And that becomes really possible when you know your material really well too. Because like Lindsey said, maybe one day the student over here is struggling, my perky pace continues. But I'm switching up what we're doing in order to give more review, perhaps, but that only comes from having really good background knowledge of what it is I'm teaching, right, and lots of experience with it. So you can whip out this tool or that tool. And that only comes like I say when you've been using it for quite a while. So I also think, again, it's that beautiful relationship between the two of the art and the science. And you really can't have one without the other. I've been in classrooms where a really well read teacher knows the material, but doesn't really understand the students hasn't really connected with the students and how to keep that material moving. And that can be challenging to be into
Stacy Hurst:one thing I love about framing teaching in those two terms, the art and science. I feel like with the science, especially the science that we talked about when we're talking about reading, development, and teaching reading is a lot of it is settled. I mean, that's the nature of science, we have a foundation, yes, we're always adding to it and refining and moving forward. But if we just went on that, if we just went on this is the science, and maybe this is how you should do it. We wouldn't have individualization in our teaching either. I personally would not want to just be handed a curriculum that aligns 110% with science and all you have to do is read it, because I don't believe that's going to happen. But I also appreciate that my teaching style will be different than yours, Danielle and Darnell is is going to be different than Lindsay's. And that doesn't mean that anyone is less effective, because we can make it our own. And I think teachers really thrive on that I would not like my career if I couldn't do that.
Lindsay Kemeny:Yeah, I like those high quality instructional materials are so important. I think it's great to have a script, but the art is knowing when you need to go off that script. And sometimes you do and sometimes we get so into oh you need to teach this program with fidelity. But we still have to remember that we have to be considering our students needs. And it's that art piece as well.
Narrator:There is both an art to teaching and a science of teaching. Share your insights on how these key components come together to support students success and to learn more about it. Effective practical literacy strategies and classroom tips, Sign up today for our newsletter, visit reading horizons.com/literacy talks.
Stacy Hurst:And I think some of the most fulfilling moments in my career have been when I went with the teaching moment, no matter what was next on the schedule, I remember a couple of times, we missed recess, or something else that was coming up, because we were just following our curiosity. And you can't always script that.
Lindsay Kemeny:I don't know if my class would ever be curious enough to miss three. They live for that. I know, that's crazy. I love it. You know,
Stacy Hurst:I you know what they frequently missed it for, I'll be totally honest. And I look back now. And I know, I could have taught this so much better. But it was writing, they loved writing. And I'm gonna save the word Writer's Workshop, because that's what we called it, but they loved it. I could have done a better job, in that case with the science and improving their skill. But they did have a lot of passion for it, which was great. What I do want to mention with that, too, because Darnell, you said this, you can't have one without the other. And I know there have been times in my life when I've had more of one than the other in different situations, instructional settings. And I'm wondering if you guys have thought about the limitations of not having enough of one or too much of another? What would do you think a classroom or would look like if say, a teacher had too much of the art.
Donell Pons:So I think what what I find interesting about this, because Stacy, you even mentioned it that different times, once you've had, you have both, and you have a really good balance between them, you know, when you don't, so it's only after you've maybe and we've all experienced one, maybe I had too much of one, because I didn't have enough of the other and I was learning to have enough of the other. And we've all been in that situation, I think if your teacher attuned to know that, oh, this is where my balance is, this feels really good. I've got enough of each of this is a really nice mix of the two. And that takes some time to put together, right. That's why teachers thankfully have some years to prepare. And hopefully they're being mentored. And again, coaching coaches coming in to help with a lot of the science of reading that's making its way into classrooms to help support teachers as they get the information and more of the science aspect into their teaching. So there'll be finding there'll be a lot of teachers across the country, maybe for the first time, maybe they've been teaching for five years and are comfortable with what they've been doing are now implementing new material and discovering some of the science of reading and implementing it in and so maybe they're going to be finding that balance now to maybe they were in balance for a while with what they had. For me. Oftentimes, when I see too much art, I'm not seeing enough stuff getting done. I think that's that's just the way to put it. There's not enough stuff getting done. In a classroom where you have a nice balance. The students, as you say, are engaged, they know that their teacher has something for them, that kids eyes are run on that teacher, they know that stuff is happening in that corner of the room. And then stuff is happening. They're getting things done. There's evidence of whatever it is. And so for me, that's always what I'm looking for when I'm in a classroom. And when you walk into classrooms where that's happening could almost feel a buzz with what's going on in the classroom, the kids are really engaged, time should move, we should get some of that flow happening for students, where they're not just clock watching the entire time and mind you some of the day is just going to be that way. But they should be getting some of that flow where 20 minutes have passed. I'm not quite sure I love it when a class ends when I'm tutoring. And we get caught up and it's like, oh dear class is over. Oops, we got to end. It's my favorite. Just because we've worked right up to that clock. And no one noticed.
Stacy Hurst:I do love that in my current setting. Do you know what that looks like? Not everybody packing up their backpack. class. And I did that as a student. So I am well aware. That's the thing. Yeah.
Lindsay Kemeny:Well, yeah, just to answer your question. Like Darnell said, quality teaching needs a balance of both. And so I think both are necessary. But I do think you can do more harm if you're all art and no science than the other way around. I watched a teacher and she was teaching online, which is kind of difficult. And it was like all science. She was doing everything perfectly right. But there was it was just very rote. Very, I mean, there was no style, no emotion. It was kind of boring. And so you know, the kids weren't so engaged, but they were still learning. So there's no damage being done. But I think the other way if we're just all art and just having fun and just only thinking about engagement, then the students aren't missing out on really important learning opportunities.
Stacy Hurst:So you make me think about a lot of things. And Donna when you were talking to if I understood you correctly, as teachers if we don't have enough of what One we compensate with the other. And so that is something I'm going to pay more attention to, in my own teaching. But I think about the art and science and the way that we're approaching teaching reading. Now, of course, it's because of my current setting. But my main focus is making sure that my pre service teachers know enough about the science, we do have a lot of opportunities to apply it as well. But when you're talking about timeline of teacher development, the time to know the science is before you get into the classroom, because Lindsey, like you just said, that's the best case scenario. If you leave with so much time being in a classroom, maybe you've picked up things that aren't aligned with the science or just feel good to you. Rather than what we should be doing. It also makes me think about the critique that phonics instruction historically got and usually the phrase drill and kill followed the word phonics. And I, as you were saying that, Lindsay, I was thinking of that, because there are some times that I've seen phonics instruction that is very drill and kill and repetitive, and you wonder what's really sinking in. But that is better than, say, the approach of just surround them in texts. And they'll get it or hope to heavens that they get it.
Donell Pons:And you know, Stacy, I was just thinking about, because my background is in writing. And that was something that I used to do a lot of when I was younger, it always surprises me when I walk into classrooms, and the the writing is such an interesting thing, because so many people are uncomfortable with it. And if you think we don't know enough about the science of teaching, reading, we really don't know anything about the teaching of writing. So even harder skill for individuals, because a lot of people who are teaching are not all that comfortable with their own writing. And so how can how can you teach a love for and appreciation for something that you yourself are saying, geez, I hope no one asked me to write something. So I also think that teachers, it's very interesting, we have this real obligation to know enough about what it is we're teaching, that we can impart at least an enjoyment or an enthusiasm or a desire to know about what it is we're teaching. And that's, that's a tall ask a lot of times for teachers, when you think about, especially in these fundamental skills, that maybe they themselves, this might be new information, as we're hearing. A lot of times in the science of reading, when we're talking about it. This is new information for a lot of teachers, the nitty gritty of how we learn to read. Well, so is the nitty gritty of how we learn to write. And so one thing I think is always interesting is the engagement, to always remember that people really love to talk. And that's that innate thing that we do, the foundation of everything is speaking. And so if you always with writing, I go back to that space of Well, then let's have a conversation. And the same can be said of when we're teaching the components of reading. We're using a lot of our speech we should be we should be using a lot of speech. And I just got some really good enthusiastic words from an educator that a lot of people would know, I'm going to name drop. But this particular educator was talking about how important remembering to speak and to have dialogue and to have conversation with students, even when we're teaching a sound, or graphing the conversation around that and love having students speak even if it's Coralie, or individually, however, we're doing that. And remember those opportunities of interaction that should be happening. It reminds
Lindsay Kemeny:me of Anita Archer, I say something you say something I say something you say something, just the master of getting everyone involved. And then it brings me back to that drill and kill. And I think Anita Archer is the same one that said, we can turn that to drill and thrill. And just like Daniela saying, it's just, you know, the teacher can bring all this emotion and excitement into it. The teacher needs to show his or her enthusiasm, right? And that's infectious.
Donell Pons:I'm going to add a third one to that, because I love what you were saying. So there's a drill thrill and skill. To me, that's the last piece you drill thrill and skill.
Stacy Hurst:Maybe we can make this simple view of phonics instruction, or what are we going to call that? So drill and through skill. Drill times thrill equals skill, I feel like we should design a study to test that.
Donell Pons:Love to hear first.
Stacy Hurst:And probably last. But I like to think about that. So this has been a really fun conversation. And it's helped me to know that our knowledge is important that science knowing the science is so critical. And actually one is going to enhance the other two, right art is going to make what we learn and know about science come to life. And science is probably I don't know if you're like you aren't guys are like me and this way, we're curious, we're learners, and that science gets me excited. And it makes me want to apply it in new and different ways that are aligned. So I think it is, it's worth focusing on, I am lucky, in our College of Education, that's actually our focus is to create knowledge and practice opportunities. We have a lot of practicums in our program, that I don't often hear of, and others. And I think that even though we have both striking a balance, knowing when to add to the knowledge, and when to provide the practice is really important. And same with teaching reading, right? We need to think about how much we teach a skill, and then we give them lots of opportunities to apply it. So thinking like that, too. So when I say the word curiosity, just in closing, let's say the word curiosity and relate it to art and science, how would you connect those?
Donell Pons:Well, for me, I love the word curiosity, I think it's a fantastic word. I love pulling that up and thinking about it. In fact, I've used it in a few classes in terms of literature with a few pieces of literature, it's kind of interesting. But for me, putting curiosity with the science of the art of teaching, that to me is teaching. A good teacher has a curiosity for understanding their subject. And you can always have different levels of understanding of your subject, understanding your students, and a curiosity for how to impart that information to your students. Because I wouldn't have gotten into teaching if I didn't have a real curiosity for how people receive information and the best way to give them that information. Because anybody can talk about something. But what was it about me that made me think that teaching was something I could do or want to do? And it really was that curiosity for if I love something so much, and I understand it so much, I really want to give it to other people, because I had such a curiosity for it. And when you can incite that in somebody else, and you see it come alive, and somebody else will for me, that's teaching. And that's, that's love and joy.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, and you know, I actually can't learn something without applying it. Like you're saying, that is what drives me to learn. I don't, I don't do well, if I'm expected to learn something in isolation. I'm constantly thinking, how does this apply to my life? How can this apply to my teaching? And I think that fostering curiosity is so important to learning. That's what keeps us motivated and engaged. Lindsey, what would you add to that? I just love it. Both
Lindsay Kemeny:of you said you both said it so beautifully. But I just think, curiosity, what an interesting way to think of bridging the two and really helping, you know, stir up some curiosity in our students is an art that's going to lead to them learning the science. I love
Stacy Hurst:that. Yeah, the word bridge is appropriate, when your words not ours, but I like that. And you know, I little kids are naturally curious. And I That's one reason I love early elementary, because you just have to go with it, and fuel it, and it's there with older learners. Now that I'm on the other end of it, it takes more work on my part, to spark that curiosity in them. I think they're at this point going through the motions, right. But if you can do that you've got an engaged and way more capable and knowledgeable teacher.
Donell Pons:I don't know that I could add anything but I just had the thought of it really is curiosity that drives when you see a student who is struggling with a particular concept, I need to come up with something I need to help that student what can I do to help? The other thing is also listening to what your students tell you to be curious about what they're going to tell you, what can they teach me. And everyday they teach me something different every day, I learned something new about my own ability to teach by being curious about what they're telling me. My students are.
Stacy Hurst:So where does passion come in dollars? Curiosity, passion? Is passion more related to art or science of teaching?
Donell Pons:Oh, for me,
Stacy Hurst:I think so too.
Lindsay Kemeny:For me, too. Yeah, I feel like I'm very passionate, very strong feelings on both sides.
Stacy Hurst:And you know, when you're in the classroom when the teacher who's passionate about what they're talking about, you know, so I love that. And I love that I know so many passionate, curious, smart educators who know how to apply the art of teaching to what they do. And I'm grateful that we had this conversation today. It's given me a lot to think about. I know we're ending our episode, but I think I'm gonna keep thinking about it. All right, you guys.
Lindsay Kemeny:Yeah, same. Okay. Well, thank
Stacy Hurst:you. And thank you all for joining us. We will see you next time on literacy talks.
Narrator:Thanks for joining us today for literacy talks, the podcast series for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Literacy talks comes to you from Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins So join us next time