Ask most reading teachers if they learned everything they needed while in college, and chances are, they’ll say no. Hands-on classroom experience and in-the-classroom coaching and mentoring have been instrumental in helping them build confidence and capacity. But beyond in-class experiences, what kinds of professional learning will help reading teachers adapt and transform their practice? In this episode of Literacy Talks, our three literacy experts share their experiences, professional development recommendations, and wish lists. It’s a conversation every reading teacher will want to hear!
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Ask most reading teachers if they learned everything they needed while in college, and chances are, they’ll say no. Hands-on classroom experience and in-the-classroom coaching and mentoring have been instrumental in helping them build confidence and capacity. But beyond in-class experiences, what kinds of professional learning will help reading teachers adapt and transform their practice? In this episode of Literacy Talks, our three literacy experts share their experiences, professional development recommendations, and wish lists. It’s a conversation every reading teacher will want to hear!
Subscribe to our Literacy Talks podcast digest and never miss an episode! We’ll send you summaries of every session, links to the resources discussed on each show, and some extra goodies so that your learning never stops.
Subscribe to our podcast digest.
Download the new Reading Horizons Discovery Product Guide.
Access the show notes.
Read the transcripts.
Hello literacy leaders and champions. Welcome to Literacy Talks. We are so excited to welcome you to this podcast series from Reading Horizons dedicated to exploring the ideas, trends, insights and practical issues that will help us all improve our professional practice in teaching reading, are a series host is Stacy Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Officer at Reading Horizons, where reading momentum begins. Joining Stacy are Donnel Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education. And Lindsay Kemeny, a Utah based elementary classroom teacher. Today's topic is professional learning and development and what reading teachers need now. Let's get started.
Stacy Hurst:Okay, welcome to another episode of Literacy Talks. I'm Stacy Hurst, your host and I'm joined today by Donell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny, as I am every week, as we are all joining together to talk about all things literacy. And today, I have the privilege of choosing the topic and we are never at a shortage for possibilities. Are we guys there shaking their heads now. So I have been thinking a lot lately about professional learning and professional development. And I'll be honest, some of those thoughts have been spurred by things that are happening in the world of literacy. Specifically, well, I will save this topic for another time, but specifically between what we call the ivory tower, and teachers on the front lines, right? And how there seems to be some kind of discrepancy between what researchers know and are learning and what access teachers have to that information, and how to turn that into practice in a way that makes a difference for their students. So I'll just start with an I think professional learning is key to that right in some way we need to learn. So I'll just start with a really big question. We've all gone to college to become teachers. And so I'm going to start with this is what we learned in college. enough for us to be effective. Teachers. Darnell, you responded really quickly with a head shake.
Donell Pons:You saw my head shaking. So I try not to do that the guys flair and nettle? Nope, you don't have to show everybody how you're feeling. But no. And I have puzzled on this. We've had many conversations. If you go to a conference with other teachers, you'll inevitably end up talking about it. Why didn't we learn the things that we really needed to know, before we hit the classrooms? And that's a really big question. I spent a lot of time in a really good program for teachers prior to hitting a classroom. And yet when I arrived in the classroom, I did not have what I need it. And you've got to ask why. Right? Why did that happen? Then we have this thing called professional development, which you alluded to at the beginning. So we're supposed to be continuing the learning journey, which I totally understand. But a lot of that professional development was also irrelevant. And oftentimes, I had teachers that had been in a school for five to 10 years who found a way to never have to be to those professional. I don't know how they did it. But they didn't even have to be to some of the professional development sessions that we did. And so I've got a question to, why didn't I learn what I needed to learn? And then what is the difference between professional development and professional training? And is there a difference?
Stacy Hurst:Oh, all great questions that I think we should discuss during this podcast. And you asked the difference between professional development and professional training, which is great, and I hadn't thought of using the word training, I was going to ask and hopefully we can discuss today to the difference between professional learning and professional development and professional training. This topic is really big. Maybe we could narrow it a little bit by keeping the focus on reading instruction. So when we say Did we learn what we need to know? Did we learn enough in college to teach reading? I think we're resoundingly No. Lindsay, we need to hear from you on this.
Lindsay Kemeny:Yes. Well, even if I had been taught what I needed to know about reading in college, which I wasn't, but let's say I had, it's still not enough. So no, the learning doesn't stop there. And you learn so much from experience and actually being in the classroom and trying things and seeing you know, how it works firsthand. So, you know, definitely the learning shouldn't stop after college and there's still going to be so much more to learn. I just think, you know, the firsthand experience is the best way really to learn a lot of things. And when you learn something and then apply it, then you just learn even more.
Stacy Hurst:So that makes me wonder what the difference is between teacher knowledge and teacher practice and how they're connected. Dunno.
Donell Pons:So Stacey, this, this is also good, because I'm just thinking a lot as you were talking here. And so for me, similar to Lindsey, saying, you know, I continue to learn hands on is the best, particularly when you're teaching reading, because so many students, they they're all different, very similar, in some ways, very different in other ways. And you've just gained so much experience and working with different ages, you're always going to have the same age student that needs your assistance, and that has its differences as well. So the hands on is critical. Why aren't there more labs, with experiences for teachers in training in education, you know, programs to get that experience when they're working with students that why does that seem so very difficult, but I think that should be key, and you should see them everywhere, we should have these reading labs, reading clinics, attached to teaching programs, where teachers can do the thing, do the thing, which is teaching reading, and and have experiences with all kinds of students. I don't know why that isn't just a given that would be doing that.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, that it's not built into any teacher program. And I know I'm at a university that is so supportive of any literacy effort. But as with any institution, there are boundaries and laws, red tape. But yeah, that should be part and parcel. So let's revisit the terms that we just use professional learning, professional training and professional development. What are the difference between those three, is there a significant difference? And what would it be
Donell Pons:done out here? Well, I've got a comment about professional development. And I this is interesting, because it was maybe the first time I've seen someone outside of a teaching sort of experience was such a strong opinion about it. But it was when I went up to the legislature, local legislature, and it was during a session, and a subject of professional development came up, it was part of a bill. And it was part of a bill that was talking about increasing a teacher's knowledge and understanding of how to teach reading. And one of the legislators said, Well, we know that professional development is useless. And I was taken aback, I was surprised to hear that he so definitively said, Well, we know that professional development is useless. And that's when I first started to feel that maybe a lot of people thought of all professional development as a set of so many hours that were tacked on to a teacher's out hours, say a Friday early, let the students out. And it's it's a whatever, it's a free for all for those two hours, and it's not really great training. And that's the first time I kind of sensed that more people thought that about professional development than I had realized.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, that's a really good point. Lindsay, what are you thinking is retiring about? Well,
Lindsay Kemeny:I was thinking, I don't really know that the right answer, I guess, I have used the terms interchangeably all the time. If I were just going to give my opinion and really think about it, I would think that professional learning was maybe taking professional development a step further, and really kind of internalizing it going deeper, and maybe applying what you're learning. But I don't know that. That's just those are just my thoughts.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah. And I think we're just having a conversation, because I'm actually not an expert on professional learning, development or training. I try hard to, to be better at what I'm doing. But I would think maybe professional development, when I hear that term, I don't have a very positive response to it. Daniel, kind of like you what you were talking about with that legislator, because I literally think it's something that my administration has told me that I need to attend, we have so many days that we have to be, you know, engaged in professional development, and they're going to give me development on how to give an assessment, or something that I may or may not be interested in. That's what I think of that's not always what it is. We know that. But that's kind of after years of teaching, I feel like that might be the attitude that a lot of us take on. Training, in my opinion, is a little bit longer. And it's more systematic. And maybe sequential is another word we can use there too, right? If you're being trained in something, then to me that indicates that we're having, you know, ongoing learning about a specific thing, and we're going to continue to add to our knowledge. So it's over time. And then learning I think, like you were saying, Lindsay, I would put it this way that would be the outcome. It's what I as a teacher have learned from Engaging in those opportunities or experiences. So also Danelle, you were talking about why don't we have literacy labs or clinics associated with teacher preparation programs? But what about teachers who are done with that? What about in service teachers? How do we best support their learning.
Donell Pons:So that's all I've ever been right? When I finally was able to get my hands on what I really needed, I was already teaching. So it was up to me to find a way to weave that into what I was doing. So talking about professional training, I enrolled in the professional training, I don't know that I ever had an administrator provide an opportunity for professional training, I'm just thinking back in my mind as I'm speaking, but I think it was always me, I always asked, there's their training for such and such, and then I would sign up for it. And I would go, and I had to find a student. So I was the one who also had to find a teaching situation with a student, and then continue that relationship with that student if there was a practicum involved. So usually, there's a base of, of information that comes with the training. And then you have some sort of practicum, where you do the thing, and you work with a student, and you are watched or observed. And then there's a certification that comes at the end of it. That's what I think of as training. What's interesting to me, as I was thinking about this very, very thing about the training piece. And there seems to be that there's, for teaching reading, in particular, there seems to be curriculum materials, and oftentimes those curriculum materials, and we need them, right, because often, I don't have the time to cobble all that together. Some teachers have had years and they put it together. But whether or not all of that is sequential, and explicit and systematic, because we know is good instruction for reading out Oh, no. So there's usually some curriculum materials and then there's decodable text that goes with it, you have all these pieces, and you get some training that goes with that with those curriculum materials if you're teaching generally. But then there's also oftentimes a program that goes a little deeper if you have students who are struggling, and they need more intensive instruction. And that seems to be the one where you have a whole practicum that goes with it. And so they're looking more intently at what you're doing with those materials. Yeah,
Stacy Hurst:pedagogy separated from curriculum,
Lindsay Kemeny:I had the opportunity to do a practicum. And I had Orton Gillingham training, and then I did a practicum. And I wow, that was a really valuable experience. For me, I it was a little nerve wracking, you know, taking these videos of myself teaching, it was just one student, and then turning them in. But wow, was I excited to read the feedback because they would go so in depth. And it really helped refine my teaching, and just, you know, you know, getting all that good feedback, and just I guess, coaching, and then being able to apply, it was amazing. So I'm just thinking, well, how can we replicate that a little bit more? You know, I'm, I know, different districts have coaches and different problems, you know, ideas or solutions to this problem. But I think we're observed right now. But I feel like it's more just kind of checking boxes. And I just love the idea of getting some really valuable feedback to improve our practice.
Stacy Hurst:So as I've been thinking about this topic, I created like a list of ways that I learn best as a person, but then also to apply that to my craft, which is teaching. And these are some of the words that I came up with. So as I read the list, Lindsay, to your point, how can we replicate some of these things in a systematic way? I would like your feedback on some of these verbs. And which of these do you feel like most resonates with you? Is there way? Or do we need to be using all of these, these kinds of approaches? So studying is the first one that I thought of, because that's me, I like to read and learn from what I read, doing, just like you were saying, Lindsey, actually doing the thing. Reflecting, collaborating, and analyzing students and their work based on what you've learned, and observing teachers. Did I miss anything? Or what are you thinking about all of those things? Sorry, I there's one more communicating.
Lindsay Kemeny:Yeah, I love those. I love thinking about that. And I don't know how to choose my favorite because a lot of those are several that kind of got me excited. And of course doing I want to do the things but it's really important the reflecting, which I don't take enough time all the time just to go okay, how did today go? Or how did that lesson go? And that's what I really loved about the practicum because it kind of forced me to go back and reflect when I had to read her feedback. Then I had to go back and think about that lesson and what happened, analyzing I like that because I think of data and I love it. I'm such a nerd because I love analyzing my students data and then trying to figure out what's going well or what I need to change.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, I think like a true learner, you got really excited, a couple of those. I love that you said that, for me. Reflecting is a really powerful one for me personally, in my first pre service educational setting, that was a big mo for one of my professors, we always had to film ourselves and then reflect we were the ones doing the reflecting. He wasn't even doing that. I learned so much through that process. But now I have my students do that. And I'll just give you an anecdotal. For instance, what just happened this week is I've been grading, I have one section of a class that I teach, we do the thing where tutoring, we're now applying the things we've learned about Foundational Reading, and I have them fill out a tutor log every week, or they tell me you know, I asked kind of general questions about their experience. And I say, how did this section of your lesson go? How did the student responded, that's kind of how it goes. Well, now that were in the second half of the semester, weekly, their assignment is to film just part of that, and then watch the video, reflect on it, and then communicate that to me. So I was grading the tutor logs, same student, and she said, I asked her how her high frequency word instruction went for the week. And that happened to correspond with the recording that I was asking her to do that section of the lesson. She was recording too. And she said, Actually, I thought it went really well. Then I watched my recording. And I found like five things that I can improve on. I haven't watched her recording it. So I personally I don't know what she could have noticed. I haven't seen the communication. But that is a good habit, I think for teachers to get into. But we really don't I don't I don't record myself. When I'm teaching my students I probably should. And then like you're mentioning Lindsay getting other people to observe and give feedback is very powerful to Danelle, you've been thinking about some things
Donell Pons:just puzzling over so I've attended more than a few of these trainings, and some that have provided a practicum as well. It's been years of of having trainings. And one thing I've noticed that really concerns me sometimes coming out of a training is that a lot of time and attention is placed on the things that we're doing, you're doing the things and learning about the things in a certain order. And but yet when you ask a teacher, so if this doesn't work with a student, what are you going to do, and they're baffled, because they don't really know why they're doing that particular thing with a lesson at that particular time, which I thought was really interesting. We spent so much time on the things that they didn't really have a great understanding of the overview of why they were doing what they were doing when they were doing it. So if it wasn't working, then what do I do? And that, to me was really interesting. And so I think that oftentimes, this is huge. Louisa Moats, I just read a quote by her when she was saying that this is a lifelong process. And she's not joking about getting all of this information. And so I don't want teachers to feel overwhelmed. But I thought it was interesting that there wasn't any time taken for us to stop to say, so why am I doing this particular thing right now? What is it that it's teaching my student? What should I be seeing? And then if it isn't working? What does that tell me? We didn't spend a lot of time doing that sort of thing. So we went through all of the things and there was a great deal of stuff to do. But we didn't really talk about why we were doing what we were doing understanding.
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Stacy Hurst:One of my favorite quotes that I've taken from Louisa Moats is and I'm going to read directly from it. Informed teachers are best insurance against reading failure, while programs are very helpful tools. programs don't teach teachers do. And it's exactly in those moments that a student goes off script that teacher knowledge comes into play. So as you were talking, I was thinking as well, we have the What the Why, and the how, with anything that we're learning for literacy instruction, what is it? Why is it important, then how to do it? And so how much of that as a teacher Lindsay, as a classroom teacher, is there one of those that's most important or that you need more
Narrator:of that?
Lindsay Kemeny:Well, personally, I like when there's more of the how, because I've had a lot of the other. You know, I know a lot of the why I know a lot of the what, but I love getting application ideas and different ways to apply things. So for me, that's what I liked the most.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, and I think that makes sense. And I obviously as a first grade teacher, that was important to me, I am also somebody who needs to know the context of it. So I would say as a first grade teacher Sure, I would probably need to know the why. And the how but more of the how, right then as a literacy coach, my focus became more on the why. And kind of on the what, but more on the why, what and the why. And then I had to relay that. So my teachers knew how to apply it.
Lindsay Kemeny:But you really, I mean, you do teachers need that base in the why, and the what, right, you need that base so that, like you said, you know, when to go off script, or if something's not working, you know, then you know what to do. I just found out a couple of weeks ago that I'm being moved to first grade next year. So I'm doing second grade right now, I've taught kindergarten previously. And this will be my first time teaching first grade. So I know the why of reading. I know the what of reading. But now what do I want to do is I want to dive more into how first grade teachers are applying some of these things in their classroom, and I have my own ideas. But I am going out on my own and finding, you know, some favorite first grade teachers in my district. And so I went and visited one last week, last Friday, and I'm going to do another one next week. And I'm just asking them things like how they run their classroom, and how do they do their take home, you know, homework reading program, and just kind of gathering and collecting different ideas. And then I'm going to decide how I'm going to run mine. But that's just that's what I'm searching is more of a how
Stacy Hurst:much as you're talking, it makes me think, as teachers, we approach our students in with a differentiation mindset, our students are not the same, and we're going to differentiate our instruction and based on what they need. Do you feel like there's a lot of differentiation in professional learning development, I don't know,
Donell Pons:I was gonna say, I don't know of any place I could go to get the kind of training that I need. When I have a student who's 60 years old, never learned to read and arrives on my doorstep. You know, I haven't really had a specific training for that student. Likewise, I have a student who is 25. English is a third language. They've been in the United States for 10 years. That's a very unique student in a lot of cases. So again, interesting hearing, Lindsey say, I'm going to find out more about the how and I think I spend a lot of time in the how to, because working with adults, their backgrounds are so varied, and they've had very different experiences in their learning journey. And so I am always learning about the how I thought that was interesting to hear Lindsey talk about that.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, I think that how is the thing we need first, and then we build? Well, I'm going back to what Lindsey said, too, and I mean, it's my whole focus, Professor, is to provide my students with that foundational knowledge, I do think there's a foundation with the what and the why, and also the how, and I again, I'm lucky to be in a university where the, you know, knowledge and application are equally important. But then as we as we learn to how we apply it, I think we need to be continually learning more about the why and the what don't know, I think I've
Donell Pons:got a great experience that kind of sums up when you don't understand the importance of all these pieces. I was sitting in a trainee, and it was a well known program. The person who has put the program together specifically says I wrote this program for students who have dyslexia and are in private school settings, she couldn't be more specific about what you were doing. And in the training, the individual providing the training is giving us the background information, the first day of one of the educators raises her hand and says, so is this a program that's good for students who have dyslexia, and the person providing the training says, Oh, we don't talk about dyslexia. Oh, I was floored. The teacher who asked the question was floored. Everybody looks around the room at each other, our eyes are kind of big, because it was a disconnect, a complete disconnect. And so I really appreciated you talking about all the pieces, the why the how the what, you know, that was a disconnect as to what was what we were doing. Yeah, it's
Stacy Hurst:really important. So Lindsay and Donna, what if somebody gave you the gift of the perfect professional learning opportunities for you, you individually? What would that look like? How do you prefer to have the ongoing learning happening professionally?
Lindsay Kemeny:Uh, well, I want to be able to choose what I'm learning about. So I think that's all is more valuable if I can choose the topic than if I just have a V because you were asking about differentiating before too. And that's a little bit you know, I don't want to sit through something where I'm like, Okay, I already know all this. I need something a little different, although I will say and I've said this before that every time I go to some kind of professional development and I think I already know it all. I learned something new, you know, I really I you know, there's always more to learn about a certain topic but but it is nice to get To choose or I want to dive deeper into this right now or right now, my goal is improving my vocabulary instruction. So I want to dive into more vocabulary or morphology or something. So I do like, I like being able to choose.
Stacy Hurst:I love that. So autonomy. And I think any educator, no matter their role, that's a huge word. I think that's important. Whatever professional learning opportunities you're giving your teachers, one way to differentiate is to allow them some autonomy within that, right?
Donell Pons:I really think having quality to choose from. And so that means that up, you know, above you higher than where you are, in your teaching, there's someone making a decision about what that's going to look like that training. And I really love seeing when they've, they've gone through thought leaders, and they've compiled things together, that are real good quality. And you can tell when they've put a lot of thought into it. And they've allowed the thought leaders researchers to guide what it is that they're selecting, and having available. And then to have choice, like Lindsey said, within that, also to recognize what I have done, and the experiences that I do have as an educator the information that I already do have, and to be able to add to that, that's where the choice comes in as to what I need with that. But I do think having quality teaching and learning moments is really important for educators.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, I would agree with that. I'm thinking of so many things as you were talking. Because sometimes those thought leaders don't have the practical background, there's a difference between being maybe a researcher and a practitioner, right. So whose responsibility is that to translate between the two? Is it on the individual teacher is on the support, you know, we have roles, we have coaches in our schools. So that's important too, because whatever they're telling us, we need to know. And we can trust. I mean, we have people that we look to that know, way more than we do. And then translating that into practice, I think is key.
Lindsay Kemeny:Yeah, it's really hard. And I feel like there's so much value on both sides. You know, I think it's so important as teachers that we, you know, listen to the researchers and respect what they say. But then it goes the other way, too. And sometimes I think teachers are, like, valued as much for, you know, as professionals sometimes. But we really need to consider, I think, a teacher's side as well. And it is research to practice, we need to create more of a bridge. And I think it's really difficult at times,
Stacy Hurst:unless we are having conversations where we are focused on translating that science to practice, we can end up on one end of that spectrum with the ivory tower syndrome, where researchers are still talking and writing for other researchers. And it may or may not make it to the classroom. On the other hand, when we're talking about the difference between curriculum and pedagogy, teachers creating their own instructional materials without oversight. And I know that as teachers, we're highly connected, we share with each other there are websites where you can purchase things that teachers have created. And for some things, that's fantastic. But again, there's no oversight. So it could be that they're creating content that isn't relevant or effective. When we're talking about teaching, reading. You know,
Donell Pons:I loved everything that you've said, here. This is a big topic. I mean, it sounds easy enough, when you say, oh, professional development, professional training, professional learning those sound like easy things to talk about. But they're really not one of the things that I am sort of enthusiastic about, I feel positive about it when this started for me on many, many years ago. And I'm not going to tell you how many now. But when this journey began for me in reading, and really wanting to have good quality information and instruction, not just because I was an educator, and it was important for my students, but because personally, I had people in my household who were struggling. And I needed to find a way to help them because no one else up to that point had been able to that going into a school and just asking really good questions about so where do I start? That was no one had any idea. There was no information. And it was a void. And if you talked about well, I've heard this reading researcher that was brand new, never even talked about that. And today, that is not the case, I'm happy to say that I can walk into a lot of different schools. And I'm hearing the same names of researchers and the same names of programs and an understanding. And I'm loving that I love that traction that I'm seeing.
Stacy Hurst:I love that too. And I think it would be really valuable if we lean in as learners, right? This is where I think it's so hard as a teacher who is responsible for how many students and you know, I don't think the number matters. Lindsay, how many students do you have in your classroom this year? Oh, it's
Lindsay Kemeny:so great. I have 21
Stacy Hurst:Oh, that It is heavenly. Yes, that is true. I have literally hundreds of students now. And Donelle, how many do you have?
Donell Pons:Goodness, and most classes are 15 to 20. And it Yeah, three, four. Yeah.
Stacy Hurst:But you know, I would say right now, your students have a greater sense of urgency, I imagine. I mean, they're older learners who really need to know how to read. So it doesn't matter the number, right. But we've got these students in our hearts and our minds that we're, we're so focused on, and then you've got this systemic things that we have, we have faculty meetings, and we have professional development that we may or may not want to participate in, and we have parent meetings and all of these things. So I think that culture just sucks the fun out of learning for a lot of teachers just because they there's so many other urgent needs, that we need to care for day to day. So I have a solution that is totally unfounded and unfunded. But I'm wondering, I'm just positing this, what if we continue with the traditional school year as we do, right, and a lot of that can look the same. And we know teachers have air quotes summers off, which is when some of this professional learning takes place, by the way. But what if we paid teachers year round, and we provided them in the summer with actual learning opportunities, there are other countries that require their teachers, the first three years of what we would call provisional, to actually get a higher a degree that is very year round, and systematic, and they're learning and they're adding to their knowledge and their practice. And I think that there's a lot we could do. One thing that I wanted to end with so this has been very conceptual, right? We've been talking about it on a concept level. But what are some practical, maybe resources or ways that you guys have learned about reading that's made a big difference for your practice? And what would you recommend to others? Lindsey,
Lindsay Kemeny:it's hard to choose a favorite. I think initially, I learned the most from just reading books and researching things myself, then I was able to get some trainings that I really loved. Of course, I love letters training. That is hard, though. Because right now you can't individually go out and get that yourself. So it's basically now large school districts purchasing. I really love the top 10 tools, training by Dr. Deb laser. And that was very affordable. I think now it's been acquired by someone else, and the price has gone up. But that was a great training as well.
Stacy Hurst:Can I just interject there, because I gone through both trainings. And both are fantastic. And I have heard a lot of teachers express disappointment lately that they can't pay for letters themselves, they've actually saved money. I mean, and it took time, and then they learned they couldn't, and their districts aren't supporting that. So I really want to say, that is a fantastic training, if your district is purchasing that, that's so great. But as teachers, we are learners, there are so many other resources out there. So please do not feel like that's the only thing. It's science, that one company or one training doesn't have a monopoly on the science, right. And I think anybody who delivers that training would tell you the same we can learn on our own. So I love top 10 tools. I'll vouch for that, too. And I don't know about you, Lindsey, but when I went through it, I really felt like there was such an expert focus on application. And so I think that gave me a little bit more actionable information, I don't know, what would you say,
Donell Pons:you know, I'm going to have to say, overcoming dyslexia. So I kind of took the route Lindsay did, and there wasn't a whole lot available to me. And so I just started where I had something to start with. And that was a book, I could go get a book. And it was overcoming dyslexia by Dr. Sally Shaywitz. And I think I've talked before about not even making it out from the library to my car, when I just started reading and diving in because it was answering so many questions. I've had so many questions for so long. And there was finally someone in a book. And then it was another book. And then it was a training and another book. And so it was kind of this, you know, one thing led leading to another and building on itself for me. But I do appreciate, as I've said before, all the trainings that are available, the talk that I see happening, educators meeting in groups being able to get online and also I know that there's kind of an uncomfortable moment right now or we're wondering about, you know, is it terms being co opted? Are we getting enough really good quality ideas being shared? And I think we can work our way through that. I think we'll be okay. But we need to keep moving forward. Keep pushing forward because we're headed in a good direction.
Stacy Hurst:Agreed. So for those teachers who are starting if they They've heard the term science of reading. They know it's been legislated in their state or mandated in their district or whatever, some good resources that they can start with if they don't have training available. And even if they do, I recommend, and I use this in my pre service classrooms, the teaching, reading Sourcebook, that is a really good foundation, because that also, now that I'm thinking, it's actually organized like that, what, why and how. So it gives you lots of practical application. That's a really great place to start. Any other recommendations? Yeah, well,
Lindsay Kemeny:this is, you know, very basic, but I created some free professional development trainings on the science of reading for my master's program a year ago. And I would probably, you know, I've learned more in the last year, you know, so I haven't updated it, but it is a good beginning, for anyone just, you know, starting this journey, so we can put that link in the show notes or something. And then YouTube, if you look up Patton, P A TTAN. They are a Pennsylvania network that puts out excellent trainings. In fact, I watched a webinar, you know, just last fall by Dr. Matt burns, that just completely changed some things I was doing in my classroom, I added in this class wide intervention, it made a huge impact. Now I'm going to speak about that at Patton's summer literacy symposium. So they're all free. So that's a great place to start and, and watch. And then the reading League has a YouTube channel as well. And then they also do a lot of live events, things that are only like $10 Each, that's a another one I'm actually presenting in may further live events. So there's inexpensive options out there.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, I think those are great ones. And then I think along with your training Lindsey that you created for your master's degree. That will give anybody the terminology they need to do their own research, right. So I need to learn more about Scarborough's reading rope. And then they would know or the simple view of reading which you cover those foundational basics there, I also would echo the reading League is a great resource. And one of my favorite resources of the reading League, in addition to their videos, is their book lists. So that's also a really great place to go. So lots of things. Another book, I just like to plug Christopher such has written a book called The Art and Science of teaching primary reading, he's British, you get the opportunity to hear him, you benefit from hearing that lovely British accent. But he does that in his book. And it's a short explanation, and then how you apply it. So really great stuff. So I think we can conclude that professional learning is essential, we're never done. And it's worth investing the time on any level because we get to keep our own curiosity alive. And that creates joy for our jobs, but most importantly, makes a difference in the lives of the people that we're teaching how to read. So, thank you for joining us for another episode, where we talk about really big things in a short amount of time. But feel free to visit our web page and add any resources that you think have been valuable to you and your career, and getting to learn about and apply the science of reading. We are at time thank you so much for joining us, and we hope to see you next time on our next episode of literacy talks.
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