Brave Voices for Literacy

Our Literacy Talks trio of hosts took time to reflect on the things they’re grateful for and what they’re looking forward to in the months ahead. From the strides their own children are making in their academic careers after struggling with dyslexia, to the work and progress they see in their own students, this episode will uplift and inspire literacy champions everywhere. A bonus? Our hosts celebrate the growing momentum in the literacy community and the many brave voices speaking up and supporting the applications of the science of reading.

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Transcript

Narrator: 0:03

Hello literacy leaders and champions. Welcome to literacy talks, the podcast series from Reading Horizons dedicated to exploring the ideas, trends, insights and practical issues that will help us create literacy momentum. Our series host is Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor at Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education and Lindsay Kemeny, a Utah based elementary classroom teacher. Today's episode will uplift and inspire you as our hosts share the professional momentum they're grateful for, and progress being made by brave educators everywhere to ensure every child can read. Let's get started.

Stacy Hurst: 0:57

Welcome to this episode of literacy talks, I'm your host Stacy Hurst. And I'm joined by Lindsay Kemeny and Donell Pons. And this week, our topic was decided by Donell, so I'm excited to hear what it is. And looking forward to the conversation. Donell, what are we gonna talk about?

Donell Pons: 1:14

I love that I love that you act like I decided all by myself. I think it was a general consensus coming into the roundup and wind down of the year, that it might be kind of nice, even though we don't know when this particular podcast will air, it might be kind of nice to kind of think about over the past year, things that we're grateful for and literacy kind of a chance to reflect back. We've talked about a lot of things this past year, we've seen a lot of things come and go and literacy. And then also to look forward, looking forward to 2023 What are some things that maybe we had hoped to see continuing into 2023, some things that that maybe we hope, culminate, that kind of thing, just kind of looking ahead into 2023 for literacy. So it's all things literacy, and it's looking back and being thankful for and then looking forward and hoping for in literacy. So let's get started. Why don't I go ahead and just kind of set it up here. So I mean, we don't all jump on the the bandwagon at once. And maybe I'll take a minute to be the first one to to give you a chance to think about those things that you are really grateful for in literacy this past year in particular. And I think for me, I've had an opportunity to come full circle, as someone who has people in their home who have struggled with reading. And that's the whole reason I got started. I think I've shared my story many times in the podcast. That's the whole reason I'm here. I started off in a totally different career, I guess, related somewhat as a writer for a newspaper, and then really shifted gears and went into high gear, learning about teaching reading, particularly because of people in my household who were struggling. I have two children who have dyslexia, and I have a husband who has dyslexia. And it was really tough watching them struggle. And that's what really changed everything for me. And so now it's been all things literacy since and this past year, I have to say for one of my children who struggled the most, I think I've said before he has it all, he's got the whole thing. dyslexia, dysgraphia, dyscalculia, ADHD, I use the full package when it comes to struggling with literacy. And this past year, I have to say, has been probably the best for him with reading and literacy that he has ever had. I know moms are going to shut her parents are going to shut her when I tell them how old they is. Because this has taken a long time. But you know, he's early 20s. He's in college. And he's really just hit his stride. So that being said, obviously really grateful for that this year that we have had some of the best most in depth conversations about literacy. I have watched him pick up some of the biggest thickest books on orthography of all things because that's become something he has picked up on his own over the past year. I haven't said much to anybody about it. But I've been watching this, go on in my household, watching pick up massive books on orthography. And spend three hours just poring over them and reading and then later wanting to have conversations about them. That's how much he's really getting out of it. So I have to say this past year that is my biggest one is to see someone that I have been there side by side with him through the whole way of how difficult it has been to acquire the skill we call reading. And to see him really enjoyed for the first time I think really enjoying and going in depth about how we read different languages, the orthography and really enjoying it. I didn't think that could happen. But that's I have to say it's top of list for me this year. So Lindsey, I'm gonna lean into you. What are you thinking about this past year?

Lindsay Kemeny: 4:45

Do you want us to share all of our things right now or are we doing one at a time?

Donell Pons: 4:49

Well, Lindsay, what's your list look like?

Lindsay Kemeny: 4:52

I was thinking of like the top three things. Yeah. So my, my first one I mean originally I was kind of Thinking of just something I was thankful for with literacy. And I was similar to you Darnell, I was thinking about my son, the one with dyslexia. And it's kind of tricky, because it's not like, I'm thankful for his dyslexia. Do you know what I mean? But it's like, the silver lining is that I've learned everything because of what he has had to go through and what I've gone through with him, you know, and it's been, it's been so challenging, but the silver lining is like, I'm so thankful for the things I've learned. And that's not, you know, maybe specific to this year, because that was a few years ago, when he was first diagnosed, and when I started my journey, but I often think about, gosh, like, Where would I be if he hadn't gone through that? And would I understand what the science of reading is? How long would it have taken me to learn this? How would I be teaching right now, you know, I just I often think about that. But particularly this past a year, I'm thankful Darnell were a little bit earlier in our journey than your son. But this year so far has been so wonderful the school year, because he has started seventh grade. And in my school district, we have sixth grade is an elementary school. And so seventh graders when they start junior high, and I have been so nervous, and I was kind of the crazy mom at the beginning of the year, who like sent up a PowerPoint presentation to each its teachers. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, we have eight classes. So let me send them all and give him like a little rundown of his IEP and the accommodations, but still, please teach him don't just do accommodations, you know, anyway, it has been going so well, like I was so nervous. And even just my little son a couple of weeks ago, told me, you know, Mom, the junior high teachers know so much about IPs. And I was like, Really, he's like, Yeah, surprisingly, I hardly ever have to advocate for myself, because they already know. I'm like, Okay, that is just huge, such reason to celebrate. And he's feeling confident, and he's doing well. And I know, we're just barely in to this whole secondary experience, right in the secondary school. But I'm just so thankful that so far, fingers crossed, things are going well.

Donell Pons: 7:23

Great. And Stacey, how about you? Well, I

Stacy Hurst: 7:26

mean, I can share a lot of things I haven't been touched as deeply and personally as you both have with people in my life with dyslexia. But I will say in my current position, as someone who professes to pre pre service teachers, I am really grateful. I mean, a lot of the work that I am so able to confidently teach is on the backs of people who have struggled with reading, right, and the things that we've learned as a result of that. And I will say I am very thankful for all of that research. And for the personal journeys and stories that have been shared along the way, as someone who's always been passionate about reading, I mean, I used to read the dictionary, the encyclopedias. I just know what power there is, and the ability to be able to read and what things we have access to as a result of that. So as someone who is in front of pre service teachers who are always feeling inadequate, and maybe a little unsure of what they're going to do, and they encounter a student who isn't learning the way that they think they would, I really am grateful that I can share with confidence with them that we do know what to do, we can address it is every case, easy? No, as you guys have both attested to. But I'm really grateful. We know what we know about how the brain learns to read and how, as teachers, we can teach it. And also knowing what we know, thankful to the people who have struggled and shared their stories, because that's also motivating and adds that human element to what we do. So I'm grateful for all of that.

Donell Pons: 9:16

I love that, you know, and Stacy yours just let into mind too. And Lindsey, I love hearing about your son's journey as well. And I'm hoping and I know statistically that there are folks who are listening, who are also in similar situations. And maybe there are folks in similar situations and they have not yet been able to find resources. And so there is hope now that there is hope. And you can always reach out and ask us to we'll try to help guide you in your particular state and in your particular situation. But there is always hope. I think that's the piece that you can hear from me, you can hear from Lindsey. And then you can also hear from Stacey in the fact that there are pre service teachers who are really concerned about being prepared to do this work and that's really great to hear. There are teachers who are very concerned about the students who will be in their classrooms, and will they be able to meet their needs. So I love hearing all of that. You The other thing that you made me think of Stacy's is second on my list, I have a couple two that I'm really grateful for. But that second one is being able to have these conversations. And we're being able to have these conversations about the science of reading and about our expectations and about how we teach more often with more people and more people understand more people have been exposed to the conversation, and so they're able to participate. And for that, I'm extremely grateful, because many, just even a few years ago, is gonna say many, but just even a few years ago, these used to be conversations you couldn't have with just everybody you'd love to. But typically, you had to search out folks who knew enough to be able to have a conversation. But more and more, you're finding people who have a foundation and a base to be able to have conversations, which is fantastic, which I'm going to take as a sign that we are indeed, moving forward with the information that we have available to us. And I know Stacy, you're shaking, you're nodding your head, because you're in this space a good deal as someone who teaches in the college level. And then Lindsey, you're in classrooms with other educators, I know you have your own list of things. Does any of that relate to what you might be wanting to share as well about being thankful?

Lindsay Kemeny: 11:04

Yeah, well, I'm, I'm just so thankful to the people out there who kind of share their voice and share. Like, I mean, my son always uses the term like my brave voice, I'm trying to use my brave voice mom, that kind of just reminds me of these voices we have, that are sharing, we have experts sharing, we have educators sharing, we have Emily Hanford who just you know, has come with her big megaphone, and just shining a light on the problems that we have with literacy today. And it takes a lot of courage. And it takes courage to share these stories. And I just, I'm so appreciative to all of them, because we can all learn from you know, everyone sharing and speaking up and not being afraid to speak

Stacy Hurst: 11:51

up. You know, I just add to that I'm thankful for people in public spaces, that are not only drawing attention to the issue, but doing something about it. And I do think especially people like Emily Hanford, who put this on the national stage, frankly, you know, we had a lot of states who are looking at things. But I, when I teach the history of reading, I teach Emily Hanford as part of that timeline, and groups like Decoding Dyslexia, and any legislator or member of the school board, or anybody who is in public service, that takes that responsibility seriously enough, and actually legislate, things that we know will work well for students. And I, I especially think in those spaces. It's easy for us to become selfish, right, if you're in a public position. And I know you're open to a lot of scrutiny when that's the case. But I do appreciate those brave people who have put laws into place that are keeping our children. And those who are learning to read safe from the practices we know can be harmful.

Lindsay Kemeny: 13:00

It is especially hard right now, because I feel like things are really getting polarized. And I think it's sparking a lot of great discussion, and Emily Hanford just came out with her, you know, all six episodes of her soul, the story podcast, and it's awesome. It also stresses me out, because I go onto Twitter, and there's so much, you know, arguing, and so I'm so grateful for those that kind of come to each other's aid. So you feel like you're not alone, when you have to say something like, well, this is like, I wasn't told a story. This is what Emily is describing, I did live that this was a real thing, you know, for me. And anyways, it's hard because I don't like confrontation. But at the same time, I think there's a lot of good coming out of it. And it's good that it's sparking so much discussion.

Stacy Hurst: 13:49

Yeah, I agree. And I think the two mediating factors, honestly, are the research. We research. I've said this before, keeps us all humble. At some point, you know, we have our pet theories we have the thing we'd like to do. But if we have good solid research, and I, you know, I'm looking at the scientific theory when I refer to that, but then also the people who are brave enough, I don't know if Brave is the word but conscious of mind enough to put kids first, not themselves. And I don't want to make pass judgments on what's happening in those debates that are taking place on Twitter and elsewhere. But I can say confidently, in my perspective, that it seems like the determining factor is that are we putting ego over what's best for kids? And the people who aren't, I'm grateful for them.

Donell Pons: 14:44

So I would add to that, Stacy, it's kind of interesting. You should say that and I think that's where we saw a lot of traction is when kids were first and our first was Decoding Dyslexia. So I know we kind of tipped our hat there a little bit, but I will say that is kind of a tipping point as well. When parents got involved and said Enough is enough. My student needs help. And that really was it. It wasn't. I have a particular program, I'm coming from a particular part of research. It was I have a struggling student, and they need to learn to read. So far nothing's working. What are we going to do about it? Right. And so I'm hoping because, you know, we have a lot of voices in the arena, as we've talked about. And there's a lot of heated debate and discussion. But I'm hoping that there's enough balance of people who have come to that public space, right, those with enough of a spread out interest about why we're doing what we're doing, that we can keep the conversation focused on just that thing. Are we doing the best for students? Are we doing the best for those who are struggling with reading, right, and they may not be students, they may be older learners, we still need to help them as well. So there should be part of the conversation to something that's really interesting to talk about. With that in mind, what are we thinking about for 2023? What do you hope continues into 2023? What do you hope you see more of in 2023, with this literacy conversation,

Narrator: 16:01

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Stacy Hurst: 16:24

It fits nicely with what we've just been talking about. But I genuinely am looking forward to more informed teachers, so many teachers are getting training in things that we should have learned in college. So I'm looking forward to hearing their voice in those decisions more often those informed choices. But I'm also looking forward to the scrutiny that publishers will hopefully continue to experience as a result of this bringing attention to the things that are really important when it comes to learning how to read I am actually looking forward to that.

Donell Pons: 17:02

I love that, Stacy, because I was thinking the same thing. And this is what I was thinking just even this morning, as I was thinking, we're having a lot of conversations, there's been a lot of legislation, a lot of folks receiving training they have never received before. And now I think 2023 and forward is going to be let's look at our data is going to be data collection, and are we on the right track? What adjustments do we need to make? That's what I think and I'm hoping is our our next big focus is that we're doing big data dives. We're finding ways to to look at and assess how students are really doing and progressing with that I also am encouraged and hope continues to is discussion about better ways to teach right to do the things we're refining a lot of those things about how what are the best ways to reach your students into teach them. So I'm looking forward to that conversation, too. That was even one of my notes. So it's funny, you should say that too, is that ongoing discussion about grabbing data? And then I'm hoping that you know, Lindsay, kind of leaning into your comment earlier about, it's kind of contentious, I'm hoping that there's less of that contentious passion about it, and more of folks focusing in on what should we really be talking about? What can we be talking about together? I'd like to see more of that, too. Lindsey, you're nodding your head, what do you think I

Lindsay Kemeny: 18:11

so many things. Overall, biggest thing is I want more proficient readers, and I want more students, you know, able to read and reading at grade level. And I want to see movement in our nape scores. And I think we have a in sometimes it takes time because as teachers are learning about all of this, you know, what we call the science of reading research behind good reading, it takes some time to figure out how to apply that in the classroom and what to do. What does this mean, in my classroom tomorrow? You know, what do I need to do? And so I hope that as teachers are coming to this knowledge and starting to, you know, apply research to practice that, then our students, you know, our scores are going to start improving. So definitely, I think that's number one. I would love there to be less contention, like you were saying, Darnell, and we need to kind of learn to appreciate these debates, but keep them professional too, so that we can just refine our teaching. And it's hard because everyone's sometimes, you know, you're like, wait, I did this. But we always need to keep an open mind that we can improve and things can be better. I would love Emily Hanford to do another podcast series. I would love to see that. But I did hear her say they might have a couple bonus episodes. So I hope that happens. And I'm excited for more research to come out, and how that can affect our practice.

Donell Pons: 19:39

Yeah, I love hearing all of that because I know we're all nodding our heads because those are exactly right down the line of all the things that we all hope for. One of the things that I've kind of was thinking about as we're all discussing two is my I think of my journey with my son as really kind of emulating this whole thing. I mean, when I started out realizing that my son was struggling with reading and why he was struggling with reading. That was taboo. To talk about dyslexia, you didn't really say that nobody would say that. And I was digging around trying to find information. And literally driving around the country trying to find folks who could help me with my son. And it was years before I and my husband were comfortable enough to say, Our son has dyslexia because that had been taken away from us to just be able to say, this is dyslexia, that in itself was helpful. So I love that we've come far enough that that's no longer discussion, we are saying dyslexia a lot more, and it's okay to say dyslexia, it's okay to understand. And then the other piece was, I didn't quite know how to help him. And a lot of people didn't know how to help him either. I see more people knowing what to do. Now, I see even more about refining what to do. So this was good. But we know that this could be even better. And what I love is all the way along the way, as long as you remain steadfast in your desire to help somebody learn to read, then there's room to say, maybe that wasn't my best effort. But now that I know better, I'm going to do this. And we don't have to feel like we we got to take a stand and defend a point that maybe wasn't the best point to begin with. And I'm hoping that we can do more of that too. In this space, you're kind of nodding your head, too. What do you think?

Stacy Hurst: 21:10

I'm just picturing what that looks like. And I think a big part of that will be that we mentor each other without divisiveness, right? That we're just all in this journey together. And there are some people who know more about the science, some people who are have more experience with the practice those who are really good at translating those things. Personally, I love it when my students get placed in classrooms with teachers that know the science, have a track record of teaching, reading, and then take my students under their wings to help them know that it does take time, right, but I do look forward to more unified efforts.

Lindsay Kemeny: 21:53

I think that's an important point. Because, you know, there's so many people who bring value to this. And there we, I love the researchers and the experts. But we also needs to include the voice of the teacher, because they're, they're working with students every day. And you can't just take one voice over another, you know what I mean? I think they're both so important. And that, you know, we need to do more of that, like, bridging together.

Donell Pons: 22:20

Yeah, I love that working together, I love it. The other thing, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna go out on a limb here, because we talked about those main points for 2023. But then if I'm really going to go out there, as a visionary, this is what I would really love to see going forward. If I had my way, if things came full circle, and this whole literacy thing played out like I hope it does, then what I would see is greater understanding of how we learn to read not amongst just K through three, because we're really focusing in and for good reason K through three, we're focusing in there, it's a really good space to be in, especially with the problem the way that it is. But I would love to see that that spreads further. And then we have fourth, fifth and sixth grade teachers who understand just as well as a K through three teacher as to how that student became a reader or did not become a reader, and what they might be able to do to help that student in their setting. And then also we see more happening with going deeper into the language, we're seeing more morphology, we're seeing more orthography, we're seeing more understanding of the language, we're seeing students having more interest in it, because they have a greater understanding, and their teachers have a greater understanding. So there's more conversation in the classroom around the terminology being used in a certain subject, I would love to see that occurring, I'd love to see because we have a greater understanding of literacy, not just in those early grades. But going into the older grades as well, for developing readers, we see more teachers pulling students who maybe they're not struggling a lot enough to need a tutor. But they're struggling enough that they're not really enjoying and getting as much out of reading. And because that teacher has an understanding of what that student is lacking, they're able to provide some direction. So even if you're eighth grade, ninth grade, you've got a teacher who's also been exposed to the science of reading enough to know that, that reading could be more enriching for that student. And I think I have some ideas for how to make that happen for that student. And for a lot of students in my classroom, I'd love to see students getting to college with the skills to be able to read the material that's in their classes, and then be able to take that information and be able to write a solid paper about it and feel confident in their skills. I'd love to see more of that. Because all along the way they were nurtured in their language journey, and being able to read and write with confidence. And to me that to me, is when we've got the whole thing put together because right now, we're really focusing in on those spaces where we need to be because we have a big problem. We're trying to start where we can to solve it, but down that road, you know, mark my words 2420 2520 26 This is what I would really love to see as a full circle of literacy where people can receive help and a boost all along the way. I don't know am I dreaming? You guys might dreaming too much here.

Stacy Hurst: 24:55

If you are it's a nice dream and I don't think it's unrealistic X really, I think it will take a lot of time and focus. But I think it sounds awesome.

Donell Pons: 25:05

Lindsey in your early grades, what do you think? And you, you're in an elementary school setting. So what would it take for us to branch beyond K through three? So that fourth, fifth and sixth grade teachers had an opportunity to be part of this conversation as well.

Lindsay Kemeny: 25:19

I think too often we think of these things in the K through C space. And there's so much that can be done fourth or sixth, for sure. But also beyond because, you know, how many high schoolers do we have that are graduating and they can't read, we've got to be able to catch these kids at all these different points, right. And we can't wait for the ones that are in k three now, where the teacher knows what to do and writing to I just think that's a whole nother conversation. And we need to be really working the foundational level of writing, make sure we're getting to that sentence level, before we're expecting them to write paragraphs before we're expecting them to write essays. Because I'm sure those secondary teachers would love it. If everyone could just write a really nice, clear paragraph. And we skip some of those we skip steps, sometimes I think, pushing our kids and then I think it creates kind of a problem down the line.

Donell Pons: 26:16

Absolutely. I think you've just given Emily Hanford, her next podcast series to you. And that's what I truly believe is that once we've been informed about something and like you say Emily Hanford and others have done a fantastic job of informing us about problems, challenges, and why we need to change what we're doing and refocus. But then there's so many aspects of this literacy piece that could be examined, that need to be examined to help us become better readers all along the way. Right. So I do I hope Emily Hanford is listening. She's got an idea for next podcast series

Stacy Hurst: 26:47

to add to that. And maybe this is a function of if all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail, but I would like to see her focus on higher ed. Because I feel like that's the answer to a lot of questions we've asked today. That's where it starts, right? And when we take a look at what's happening in colleges of education, in relation to reading, and I'm talking even if you're graduating, and you're going to be a high school biology teacher, what kind of information did you receive in your pre service education to help you address students who can't read or to talk about the morphology and the meaningful parts of words that you're teaching is part of your content, right? I think any high school or college instructor for that matter would love to give a reading assignment and confidently know that their students can access that meaning that they can read it without boundaries or barriers. Well, we're talking about staying humble and focused on the science, I think pre service programs are a good place to focus. And they're part of the reason we are where we are today, for better or for worse. And I think it's a good thing for us to make sure we're doing a better job at

Donell Pons: 28:02

Stacey. I love that. And I love that you pick that up, you couldn't have done a better job of picking up that thread, because that's exactly where it needed to go. Is the conversation about? Okay, what about those teachers? Fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, 10th 11th 12th. We're not leaving out a grade here. We're not leaving out anybody? What are we doing to help them to be able to meet the literacy needs of their students and that all the buck stops at the training you receive? Absolutely. So I love that you brought that up Stacey and picked up the thread of that conversation. That's our wish list are thankful and our wishlist going forward. I think it's beautiful. If we can have our our wish list realized, I think it'd be fantastic. So those are my thoughts and Akash. I appreciate having this conversation. I always do. Thank you so much. It was really fun to be able to share these thoughts together. Yeah, for sure.

Stacy Hurst: 28:47

And just in closing, I'm thankful for you guys and for the conversations that we get to have in this podcast, and for all the people who helped produce it. Because we basically just show up and talk, a lot of work behind the scenes. So we are thankful for all that work. And I'm sure we collectively can say we're looking forward to what our podcast has in store in the future. So thank you all for joining us. We'll see you next time on literacy talks.

Narrator: 29:19

Thanks for listening to literacy talks, the podcast series for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Literacy talks comes to you and your colleagues from Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Visit reading horizons.com/literacy talks often for resources, ideas and great literacy learning conversations. Subscribe to Our Podcast digest and you'll always be up to date on all things literacy. See you next time.