Literacy Talks

Being Intentional about the “Why!”

January 17, 2023 Reading Horizons Season 3 Episode 2
Literacy Talks
Being Intentional about the “Why!”
Show Notes Transcript

The reading pendulum is swinging, and in this episode of Literacy Talks, our reading experts talk candidly about how to frame and navigate the changing priorities and emphases. This conversation will give teachers and leaders valuable perspectives on the importance of focusing on foundational skills while still addressing all strands of literacy in instruction. The sciences of reading and learning can help guide the way, as early literacy instruction focuses first on phonics and then expands education to include all literacy components. It’s a “must-hear” episode!



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Narrator:

Hello literacy leaders and champions. Welcome to another episode of literacy talks. The podcast series from Reading Horizons dedicated to exploring the ideas, trends, insights and practical steps that help educators everywhere build and sustain literacy momentum. Our series host is Stacy Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Officer at Reading Horizons, where reading momentum begins. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education and Lindsay Kemeny, a Utah based elementary classroom teacher. Today's episode looks at the need to integrate phonics and decoding instruction as an essential foundational component of literacy instruction on the road to meaning and comprehension. This is a conversation you'll want to hear and share with your colleagues. Let's get started.

Stacy Hurst:

Welcome to another episode of literacy talks. I'm Stacy Hurst. And I am joined by Donell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny. We're gonna refine maybe are thinking about phonics. And when I say refine, the reason I thought of this topic is because of a blog post that Tim Shanahan posted, recently called What do you think of phonics first, or phonics only in the primary grades? So as I started thinking about that, I realized that going way back when we hear the phrase, the reading wars, phonics very quickly became at the center of that those conversations, and they still are. And I think for those of us who are in a place where we're learning more about the science that goes into developing the ability to read and teach reading, it's important to understand I think the history of it, first of all, but then also know how to address it, so that we can all work together to implement it in ways that are best for our students. Actually, this blog post, I mean, Tim Shanahan frequently does this gives me reason to think. Right, and I do respect him because he is his own thinker, for sure. And I think he, yeah, makes good points that I thought we'd have a good time talking about today. And I know this is a going to be a higher level discussion, but I think there's going to be a lot of practical application that can come out of it, too. So I'll start off by asking kind of a general question. To each of you. Why do you think that phonics got that role at the center of the reading debate, or the reading bores?

Lindsay Kemeny:

Well, I think it's probably the biggest area of difference between a more structured literacy approach versus a whole language, which was really no phonics, and then balanced literacy was just kind of phonics sprinkled in, but nothing systematic, or explicit, you know, so I think the huge movement right now, because I think it's the biggest weakness is in phonics instruction. And those that code emphasis approaches, you know, has a lot of research to support. So I guess, I think it's where the difference lies, the biggest difference lies and so that's why it gets so much attention.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, that makes sense. I don't know, what do you have to add to that?

Donell Pons:

And I appreciate everything Lindsay said and agree. And then I'm going to add my own two cents to and I'm sure everybody's got a different opinion. And some of us might have things that we agree upon. But it's all perspective, right? And also your experience you if you're an educator in the classroom, what years you were in the classroom, a parent of a child who struggled or didn't struggle, what you saw, from that perspective, a person who struggles with reading as an adult and what you thought, you know, went on in the classroom when you were young, what you didn't or did get. So I think this is a good kind of question for a lot of people to think about. There is not one clear answer. I don't think and I think that's also the challenges. I don't think there's one clear answer. But one thing I think that makes the debate interesting today, and perhaps different than debates we've had in the past, and even Shanahan mentions the 1980s, being a time when we made a shift again, is we have brain science, we are looking at fMRI scans of brains of children who are reading and we're looking at what looks like a brain of someone who does have a challenge with reading and what the brain looks like when you don't have a challenge with reading. I think that's new. That's something my mom didn't have. It was a cheap teacher in those primary grades. My mom was armed with a bunch of information and studies and she really appreciated phonics that sounded right and felt good to her what she read and what was available, felt good to her. All through the years. My mom promoted that, but she didn't have brain studies to look at we do. That's a powerful tool, powerful piece of the arsenal. So when I hear people say, Oh, your pendulum is just going to swing again, I think yeah, but if we didn't have those scientific studies, and we didn't have the brain scans, I'm might agree with you.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah. And Shanahan mentions that pendulum swing. And I generally like to disagree that we're in that kind of a state. I mean, I think we'll have some back and forth as we get our equilibrium. But I feel like it is a movement with momentum. Right. And as I'm thinking about what both of you just said, and trying to answer that question myself, I think it is because like Lindsey, you mentioned, it is at the heart of what is different philosophically. And we know, we know now that the science of reading is based on science, not philosophy or somebody's opinion. But I think the heart of it is that in one side of those conversations, there were people who felt strongly or were taught that reading develops in a more natural way, kind of like speaking, and that phonics is not natural, right? That it doesn't happen, like speaking. And so those of us who know better, based on science, not just our own personal opinion, that like Darnell, you are saying, now we have more data, we were guessing before. But now we have technology that can help us literally know what the brain is doing, as we're learning to read and what it needs, and how it develops proficiency, which came to be, in my opinion, an unspoken part of Dr. Shanahan's blog, because he was talking about how much time should be spent on phonics instruction in a classroom, and then everything else that goes into reading later. But sometimes that's the impression we get, maybe it's because it's we're anxious, we want to get that skill down. Lindsay, I'm curious to know, in your estimation, do you have a timeframe that you think phonics instruction should be addressed throughout the day or something that's been a sweet spot for you? And I know you've taught different grades?

Lindsay Kemeny:

Yeah, well, I always have done about a 30 minute phonics lesson. And then if I'm going to have like some meaningful practice opportunities, applying that where we're kind of, you know, that's gonna go over the 30 minutes a little bit. So like, if we're doing kind of our fluency practice and our you know, applying the phonics, things in connected text, it tends to go a little bit over. But also we're working on fluency and comprehension and all that at that time. So it's not just phonics right now, because I just started teaching first grade, my phonics lessons are a little bit longer right now. And that is because we are learning the right way to act during our phonics lessons. And we're trying to get those transitions and I'm having to really stop Oh, well, we need all eyes up here. Oh, what are we doing with our whiteboard markers or markers are down and so my phonics lessons right now are like 4045 minutes. And that's because we're like, the third week of school and everything is a little bit slower. So you know, I love I need to Archer, how she says, you know, have a brisk pace have a perky pace. And I tried to do that. But right now I'm like, trying to really, like learn our transitions.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, lots of repetition. I remember that teaching first grade, how many times did we walk back and forth between the lunchroom in our classroom? Practicing until all of our friends understood? Yeah. And in less Do you think that goes away? Just today in my university classroom, I asked my students to close their eyes and we're taking a poll. And, you know, half the class had their eyes off. So I said, Oh, some of our friends have their eyes open. Let's try that. You just go right back into first grade mode. So you're saying 30 minutes, generally speaking, and then application time? Yeah. Danelle, how much is too much phonics instruction timewise. In a classroom? What do you think?

Donell Pons:

Well, so I was hoping that I might get to maybe chime in on Wednesdays question two of working with adult learners. So what do you teach with adult learners and I was gonna say it looks much like Lindsey is classroom, right? The adult learners that have struggled with reading need those same skills, and so I'm doing very much the same things. Lindsay is only making it appropriate for the level of development for my adult students. But that also, I thought was interesting when Lindsay was talking about behavior, too, and management of the class. And a big one that Anita Archer said to that I apply a lot with adult learners is don't commit a suicide. And don't assume with adult learners, and that's a big one when you're working with adults is do not assume just because this person is you know, this far along in their learning career does not mean they received everything they need it clearly they did not because they need help. And so that's a big one for me. I'm working with adults, but I loved listening to Lindsey because that mirrors exactly what I'm doing also with adult learners because I hear often people say, Well, what do you do with adults? The same thing they should have had when they were younger. Obviously, it's a development developmentally different for your adult learners. That's interesting.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, well said. And I think Tim Shanahan's point was well taken, that phonics is a means to an end, we know that it's a very critical means to that end. And I think, in our anxiety over that is where it gets applied maybe too much. And I personally don't know if there's too much. But I want to preface that by saying there can be because it would be at the expense of the other things we need to be yes. So depending on your students, your grade level, I'd say and how much they're cognitively able to manage at once. It sounds like that 30 minute timeframe with a lot of application is irrelevant. Lindsay

Lindsay Kemeny:

well, and anyone who truly understands what the science of reading is, none of those people advocate for phonics only. Right? No one does. And even like, even the question on this blog post, just it bothers me a little bit, because this person is saying that they've been to letters training, and they have a phonics program. But if you have done letters training, she clearly, you know, covers the bases for everything in there. And it's not just phonics. And if you get to unit seven, and you can and you did your reading, she tells you that the instructional time those foundational skills should in kindergarten, first grade be half of your time. So she's saying you need two hours, at least two hours in first grade, and half of that should be on foundational skills. And the other half is everything else. So I mean, but we all focus so much on phonics because like we said, that's the difference. And that's like in my teaching, when I was teaching balanced literacy. And now biggest difference is the phonics, I was doing a horrible job at teaching phonics. And so for me, that was the biggest change I made. So we're all really loud and trying to advocate for phonics. But that doesn't mean at the expense of the other things. Like you said, Stacey.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, I think that's a great point. And you use the term that we all use foundational skills. And I think that may be where we get a little tripped up. And just for context, the question that led to Tim Shanahan's response was exactly that. At my school, the district and service has made a big deal out of Scarborough's rope. Nevertheless, when it comes to daily instruction, we the primary grade teachers have been told that decoding is the most important thing. And we are to emphasize that, and I think that's an important word actually emphasis. They've sent us to letters training, purchased instructional programs on phonics and require testing students. nonsense word fluency frequently, at what grade levels? Is it appropriate to teach the language comprehension portions of the rope? And I think as you you've mentioned, Lindsay, as you go through letters, you actually do discover that you are teaching those all along the way you are doing that may change with that changing emphasis across the grade levels, you're going

Lindsay Kemeny:

to emphasize that a little more as each grade level up, right, it's getting a little bit more of an emphasis. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:

yeah. And I'm working with my students. Right now. I'm teaching them about dialogic reading, which is all about those upper strands of the rope. And the fact that we're doing that as a read aloud early on, but we're being very intentional about language development, and how we facilitate that, not to get that lost in, you know, the instruction of the phonics, but also keeping in mind that you're exposing students to those rich, you know, the sentences and the syntax and you're still being intentional about and maybe that's the word to use, we need to be more intentional about how we address those upper strands of their open the lower grades. So now, where are you thinking I can see your wheels turning?

Donell Pons:

Yeah, so I just we mentioned Scarborough's rope, which needs to be a part of this conversation, clearly, right? We're talking about the lower strands, and we're talking about those decoding and basic skills. And then also making sure that we reaching the upper strands of the rope. One thing I want to talk a little bit about that rope is really important to think about for a minute, not just as an image of all the pieces that go into really good reading comprehension, when you have it all put it together, the thing we're all working towards, right, not just the pieces, but we want the whole rope together is that if you are being introduced to concepts that are new to you, you may have a tendency to maybe focus on that portion. But we've never ever have said that's the only part right? It's just this may be somebody's introduction to a portion that maybe they weren't taught before. It had been overlooked. Maybe it was deliberately left out because of somebody's philosophy at the school where a person is teaching and now this is a a different look, and you're maybe being introduced to new concepts. But no one has ever said that's the only piece or the most important piece. And we've had this conversation before that when you put a rope together, if you've ever watched somebody make an actual rope, and you see them winding the fibers together, they need all of the fibers being wound tightly together, you don't have a great rope by saying I'll just take those two strands, that'll do for me, thank you, you can have the rest of those five other strands. Nobody wants that rope. Everybody wants the rope that has all of the strands. That's the strongest rope. And so I don't think anyone has ever, ever argued that. But I think it can get lost when we've had these conversations that have been challenging and difficult for a lot of folks. There's also the piece we've talked about with legislating literacy when many states are legislating pieces, and it starts to feel like that's what's happening. And I love Shanahan's image in his blog post, where he starts off talking about the boating accident in 1915. In Chicago, many people died because the a boat sank. And the reason why is is when everybody got into the boat, it was listening to one side, and then they tell everybody, oh, we're listening to one side or buddy move, everybody immediately moves to the other side, and they tip the boat. And so I thought that was a really interesting image for him to choose. And it's something to think about. It's not just an image, but it's also something to really think about.

Stacy Hurst:

indisputably fine phonics is a really complex piece of all of the things that we're looking at with that rope. And so it makes sense that like you're talking about Danelle, our focus will be almost a hyper focus initially, because we're learning it to. On the flip side of that, I want to say we I know I have in the past, and I think I've seen a lot of teachers do this based on curriculum that's available. I think, curriculum writers are doing this, but I think we are committing a suicide. On the level of the higher level of ropes, we assume because we've been speaking and listening for a long time that we understand the complexity of spoken language. But when it comes down to having to teach it explicitly, I think that's when we have that illusion of explanatory depth as they say, when you have to teach syntax, rather than just use it. It's a different thing. But sometimes we feel like oh, you know, with the simple view of reading, will or we're going to teach phonics, we have our program. And that's the important thing, because language is language. And if they understand language, they're going to understand what they read. But I think the image of the boat, what is the tipping point? And there is a book by and I think this is part, this probably fuels the conversation, especially for some people who've been around a long time. But it was the book by Diane McGinnis, why our children can't read and what we can do about it. And I remember reading this book as a first grade teacher. And if I remember correctly, and that's a stretch and I did not take time to look it up ahead of time. She recommends only teaching phonics first before you even hand a book to a student. You're teaching all those skills in isolation. And then you're introducing them to books. And I think that probably helped me Lindsay, I saw you react to that. What are you thinking about shaking my head? I'm

Lindsay Kemeny:

like, No, it's not just one thing. You know, it's not just phonics and nothing else. Yeah.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah. So I think that's probably where some people get misconceptions that when we're teaching phonics is is that drill and kill and without context, and without exposure to rich literature and text that I think that it's important point.

Narrator:

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Lindsay Kemeny:

So I like this quote, which does come from the letters manual. And it says an overemphasis on foundational skills can leave students bereft of the background knowledge, vocabulary and language comprehension associated with content rich text, right? And so, yes, I teach first grade. So yes, I have a heavy emphasis on those foundational skills, but I absolutely have to address the upper strands and all the strands, obviously, but you know, those upper strands of Scarborough's reading rope, as well, and I'm not going to wait for them to be able to read before they get to do that.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, and I we know this through research that in the early grades, vocabulary is expanded largely through speaking and listening. But the number one way to grow your vocabulary is reading. And so, again, it's just that shift in emphasis, I would say so I know Shanahan use the boat example. But I think if you think about a boat, they do have equilibria And then they're able to maneuver through water boats are but they do go back and forth there is that rocking back and forth. And I think when even the term balanced literacy is misleading, because balance just by nature may be easy to achieve, but not easy to maintain. Right. And so, depending on our students, depending on the year, depending on their background knowledge, our boats gonna go back and forth a bit. But if we know what to address, then we're not going to capsize it right? We're going to keep it moving in the water. John out,

Donell Pons:

Stacy, I love that point. And to that point, looking back at the letters manual, because it was brought up and it is a big part of what's going on in teacher instruction these days. And it's volume one, page 166. In case there are educators out there who have their letters, manuals, and they want to take a look, Lindsay's already mentioned it, I think she was in unit two when she talked about this one in the second book. This is at the top of the page and motes is quick to point out and it's just above a general phonics lesson plan. But she's got a quick paragraph, but it's got so much information in it. She says teaching code focused programs requires knowledge of content, a sense of purpose, good diagnostic information by which to target instruction, and a solid repertoire of teaching routines. And as they say, just like you were saying about a boat that rocks, you have information that dictates to you what you're going to do in a boat to maintain safety and a boat, right, there's a lot to know there are things that you have to do. And just like teaching, reading, and with phonics Mote says there are things that we should know and she lists them very carefully. It is going to require knowledge of content, a sense of purpose, good diagnostic information by which to target instruction. So that's another key piece is targeting instruction, with good diagnostic information. And a solid repertoire of teaching routines are fantastic, just right there, above the lesson plan.

Stacy Hurst:

I also love that the science of Reading isn't one discipline, right? It's not just the science of reading. It's the science of learning and the science of teaching. And we have to keep in mind what our students are capable of. Cognitively. As we're keeping that boat afloat. I did find a really good infographic that we'll share in the show notes as they say, but the title is called the changing emphasis of the sub skills of the five components of reading. And this is adapted from Michigan's integrated behavior and learning support initiative. But it does, it has phonemic awareness, phonics, fluency, vocabulary and comprehension. And then by grade level, it kind of highlights the emphasis. So in kindergarten, the emphasis is on phonemic, awareness, blending and segmenting, specifically, and phonics. And then we're still attending to fluency, sounds and words on those levels, and then vocabulary. We're doing that through speaking and listening comprehension we're doing through speaking and listening, they do a really nice job of just giving us a starting point to look at how we're addressing those. One point that Shanahan made in his blog post that I thought was brilliant, was a reminder actually, about how that rope was constructed. And I do remember watching the very video that he was talking about was the anniversary of the breeding rope, and Hollis Scarborough was speaking about it and she said, If I had to go back, I would insist that at the bottom of the rope, they draw an arrow saying these skills develop over time. And we need to look at it from left to right, in addition to bottom to top. So I think this infographic helps us do that as well. So I am thinking practicality wise now and I get this question all the time. It is an element of explicit instruction that we teach to mastery Before moving on, we have all kinds of ways of referring to that zone of proximal development. I do we do you do? When do you move on? Are we really mastering in phonics instruction specifically? Yeah, how do we measure that? Dunno,

Donell Pons:

to quote Anita Archer again, because she had she said something that really stood out to me. She said, I do. We do. We do. We do. We do. We do. You do. Right. And then we may I do again, and we do again, until you do. So I thought that was really, I was fantastic. It was great coming from Anita Archer, because we love to make quick quotes of things right. But I love that she slowed the quote down, went back and said, Let's really examine that quote. It's a nice pithy say, but let's really examine it and really made me think about within my own teaching and watching other teaching, is that really what we're doing? Are we really allowing students to receive a concept work together with a concept and then have independence with a concept and then have the opportunity to say Wait a minute, I'm not quite sure about that concept. What was that concept? Again? That's really what I think is interesting. And I think that that's what I get to do as an educator of older students, is to really see where maybe they received the concept that sounded vaguely familiar to me. And I really didn't get a whole lot of we do. And I certainly never got to I do. And yet we were moving on. And that's really what people's experience with reading instruction has been over time, is there was a lot of I do a few students did we do? Very fewer students did I do, and I was left with a lot of other kids who were going, I can't even do that.

Stacy Hurst:

And then there was blame you Oh, you can't do it. And we put it on the student, not the teacher. So Christopher, such a few weeks ago, if you know who he is, he wrote a brilliant book. And I'm tempted to use my British accent, but it's awful. I tried to speak with that accent in England, and I got called an Australian. So I know I'm not even close. He's British. So he wrote a book called The Art and Science of teaching primary reading, it's actually an assigned book in one of my classes. But on Twitter a few weeks ago, he had a strand about phonics, and he actually was calling out, you know, some of these refinements in our thinking about it. So one part of it is, which, you know, in Twitter, you have to have many tweets, to say this much, but one was the key goal of phonics is not to explicitly teach kids the entire code. This simply is not how learning to read happens. The key goal is to teach kids enough of the code, so they can begin learning how English orthography actually works through successful experience with text. So it's kind of a nice way to sum up everything the two of you just been saying.

Donell Pons:

And I think that leans into Lindsey, many of the conversations that we've had as as a group, and sometimes on the podcast, and just privately about small group instruction and the importance of really good small group instruction, where you have opportunity to review concepts with students and give them a chance to to do them on their own as well, once you probably have a few thoughts.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Yeah, they had they need those practice opportunities with feedback. And if I was doing whole group all the time, I can't do that. So individualized, right. So I need that small group. So I can give more immediate feedback, and they can have lots of practice opportunities with the teacher. So

Stacy Hurst:

yeah, and I think that's probably the thing that's gotten left out of phonics instruction, right? I've been familiar with a few different programs. I won't name them, but they were actually I can see why phonics gets the rap for drilling kill, right. And they were in isolation, and there were no opportunities to apply it. And I think a lot of phonics lessons when we are looking at a phonics lesson, we should be looking to see that wait. The idea should be the smallest part. Lots of we do. And we do and we do again, we do with feedback, and then you do you do with feedback? And yeah, like you were saying, Lindsey and small group,

Lindsay Kemeny:

back to your question about like, Master, how long does it take to master because not all the kids are going out? You have one phonics lesson and now I got it. Oh, I spells? Boy, now I have it. No, they're going to need a lot of practice, and you need that spiral review. And so I think it's okay to go to the next concept. But you're you make sure to go back, you know, and then they have that space practice and that spa review, and make sure you're bringing everyone along with you as you go. So

Stacy Hurst:

and they can apply it right, because that's the thing. I think that for those of us who've been teaching reading, I frequently say this to my students, I have to be explicit about this. Sometimes our own proficiency gets in the way of our instruction. As readers we don't have it's rare that we have to sound out a word, right. And unless it's in our spoken vocabulary, we may or may not do well, I always think of the name Hermione from Harry Potter had zero idea how to pronounce that. And it turned into that girl whose name starts with an H, as I was reading it, thankfully, is part of my spoken vocabulary now, but we do have something in science called the set for variability. And I think our role as teachers is to facilitate enough practice opportunities so the brain can do what it was designed to do, right? We're still helping build those pathways. I used to describe it like this. And actually, I'll keep describing it like this because it's a fun way to do it. But then Lindsay, you're about to experience this in first grade, but I always thought that my students were like popcorn kernels in whatever you're cooking those kernels in, same amount of heat, same environment, and some of them will pop at different times. I now know how to speak to that a little more intelligently. That tells me that their brains have picked up on enough patterns and are able to apply it to the point of automaticity So, to your point, we just can't overlook that we do part and giving feedback on that it's going to help our brain learn how to read automatically. Any other thoughts about that

Lindsay Kemeny:

guy saw this on Twitter and I thought it was a great point, kind of about this blog posts that I wanted to bring up. And that is that you know, I hadn't heard and Tim Shanahan is saying this phonics first phonics, fast phonics only. I really haven't heard that term before because, like I said, No one who understands the science of reading is advocating for only phonics. But that phrase, there is a phrase and what that refers to is actually to not promoting multi cueing word guessing. So when that phrase phonics first phonics, fast phonics only is talking about when you're decoding, right, when you're reading a word, yes, we only want you to use phonics to figure out that word, we don't want you to look at the picture and guess look at the first letter, and guess we don't want you to skip the word, read the sentence and guess what goes in, we want phonics. And that's actually where that phrase comes from.

Stacy Hurst:

That makes sense. And that is to make a point about why it's important not to forget to address building vocabulary, and comprehension at the same time. Let's say we get to a word like Hermione, and I can sound it out. And I think I came up with her my own or I just didn't know. Unless I have something to connect that to in my spoken language. It's gonna remain not very rich for me. Right? So to your point, Lindsey phonics first, yes, I sounded that word out. But my brain hadn't quite recognize that pattern. Because I didn't know that was the pronunciation of it. Not a name I'd heard before.

Lindsay Kemeny:

And you're going to use phonics first to figure out that word. And then guess what you are going to use the context to understand the meaning of the word and what's happening in the story. And so when we had our Anita Archer episode, and she had said something about she was teaching students how to use the context, I almost wanted to clarify, to everyone out there, she wasn't teaching them to use the context to figure out the word, but to figure out the meaning any word, and that is absolutely fine. Yeah.

Stacy Hurst:

Which is, again, that's where confusion with the three cueing comes in, right. They, they, their point was that we're using context to figure out the actual word, how to decode it. And that's what we did. So yeah. Was there anything else just before we close that stood out to you in that blog post, the we haven't covered yet.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Nate Joseph, on Twitter shared this, and he had interviewed Dr. Shanahan, and he had said, you can't teach reading comprehension before students know how to read. But you can teach listening comprehension. So I think that we're we're teaching listening comprehension. We're teaching them how to read the foundational skills, then that's transitioning to reading comprehension, right? And still working on those foundational skills. So I liked that quote,

Stacy Hurst:

yeah, another Archer ism is right along those lines, there is no comprehension strategy that can compensate for not being able to decode the words. And again, the focus there is on this simple view of reading comprehension. It's not just listening comprehension. And I

Donell Pons:

think that's interesting that leans into the definition of dyslexia, if you're going to the very basic definition, it's a student who is listening comprehension is off the charge, but they're don't have an ability to read the text, right? And so they're we're looking at, that's a person with a reading difficulty.

Stacy Hurst:

He ends the blog posts with this sentence, it's kind of a mic drop, it's a good way to close the blog. He said, Let's not sink the boat in our zeal to make it look like we are doing a great job with phonics. We can do a great job with phonics. But the litmus will be if we're helping them take that knowledge across the finish line and actually become proficient at reading, reading comprehension. Right? As they say, what we teach in isolation stays in isolation, we find to make all the connections. Yes, done.

Donell Pons:

And just to quickly add, Stacy, there isn't a fast route to this. So I think that's the other piece that has to be said over and over and over again, is there is not a quick route to this just like teaching reading, there's going to be an I do we do we do we do we do. And then I'm going to take it on my own right? This is going to happen in your journey in teaching reading as well. Right? And so we may have to go back to and reevaluate and say, Oh, wait, what did I miss? There's, I need to tweak this piece. And that's okay. That's okay to do. But I didn't give it the first round. If there's somebody today who listened and said, Gosh, I didn't really pull that out of letters. That's okay. Go back. Take a look. That's all right. Ask questions, get online, do a Google search, find out resources, get some get some information. That's another piece we have to be patient with as well is not to say, well, if it's looking this way, and it isn't the way that it's supposed to look and I might be doing these things that were mentioned today. Oh dear. It's not an idea. It's an opportunity, right? We need to take those and say this is an opportunity to up my game, go to the next level, ask them different questions that's deeper meaning deeper learning.

Stacy Hurst:

Absolutely. As learners, our boats are going to do the same thing. And pretty soon we're going to be coming along. We're going to be speed boats, we're going to know this. But it is that balance between knowledge and practice. It really is. And I'm in a situation now for example, where I can apply what I'm learning but in a different way. I'm not in a first grade classroom. Lindsay is. So you can you can balance that knowledge and practice. But I remember when I was teaching first grade, thinking I needed more time to know this stuff, right? And so knowing only really happens when we apply it either way when we're talking about our students or our own teaching. So what you said Danelle is spot on let's give ourselves some slack and know that this is a progression, right, we're gonna keep on keeping on. Thank you for this conversation. I think it's an important one for those of us who are no matter what our role is in literacy and implementing things that we know work for our students, I think having that context of where phonics fits into that big picture. So thank you to Dr. Shanahan for responding to this great question. Thank you for the person that asked the question and give us an opportunity to have this conversation. But you know, as we were talking, I really was thinking about Louisa Moats. This article teaching reading is rocket science. It really is. And so thank you for being part of it. Well, now we've gone from boats to rockets. I think this is a good place to thank you for joining us and we will see you next time on literacy talks.

Narrator:

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