Every educator can relate to this episode as it delves into the complex issue of students encountering difficulties in reading. Our podcast hosts approach this issue through various lenses, revisiting the essentials of effective reading instruction, highlighting the significance of diagnostic assessments, and emphasizing the importance of early identification of learning gaps. This episode underlines the value of structured literacy, setting priorities, and understanding students at a personal level. Listen to gain helpful strategies to devise, implement, and modify instruction for your students, converting challenges into stepping stones toward success.
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Every educator can relate to this episode as it delves into the complex issue of students encountering difficulties in reading. Our podcast hosts approach this issue through various lenses, revisiting the essentials of effective reading instruction, highlighting the significance of diagnostic assessments, and emphasizing the importance of early identification of learning gaps. This episode underlines the value of structured literacy, setting priorities, and understanding students at a personal level. Listen to gain helpful strategies to devise, implement, and modify instruction for your students, converting challenges into stepping stones toward success.
Subscribe to our Literacy Talks podcast digest and never miss an episode! We’ll send you summaries of every session, links to the resources discussed on each show, and some extra goodies so that your learning never stops.
Subscribe to our podcast digest.
Download the new Reading Horizons Discovery Product Guide.
Access the show notes.
Read the transcripts.
Hello literacy leaders and champions. Welcome to Literacy Talks the podcast series from Reading Horizons, dedicated to exploring the ideas, trends, insights and practical issues that will help us create literacy momentum. Our series host is Stacy Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor at Reading Horizons, where reading momentum begins. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education and Lindsay Kemeny, a Utah-based elementary classroom teacher. Today's episode explores what to do when students struggle. It's a practical, uplifting and student centered approach to turning reading difficulties into a pathway for success. If you have struggling students, this is an episode just for you. Let's get started.
Stacy Hurst:Welcome to another episode of Literacy Talks. My name is Stacy Hurst and I'm your host and I have the honor of being joined for every episode with Donell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny. And we take turns choosing what we're going to talk about. So today, we're going to turn the time right over to you Donell, what are we talking about today?
Donell Pons:Great. Say I was waiting for your, like, kind of a little monologue or something. So
Stacy Hurst:just step up my monologue game. Next episode, today.
Donell Pons:Oh, it was good. Yeah, so this week, you know, every, every week, we have these topics. And they're all you know, obviously, we enjoy them. That's why we are bringing them up, and we discuss them. And some of them, we were just saying even before we started recording, they're tricky, you know, might be a newer subject or something that people are kind of, it's controversial, or they're thinking about, and then their episodes is just kind of flow. You know, it's like, Who wouldn't love just talking about this? And so we'll see what this one falls under today that's thinking in my head is what will this be today? And I think what, what we kind of fell upon is, is going back to that subject that keeps coming up as and it will do, and it should, and that's when teachers are saying, okay, look, I'm doing the things, you know, I might be further along than some in my journey of coming to understand the components of the of the base and understanding of the science of reading the components, and then what I'm doing in my classroom, and what that looks like, as I teach, and they can be on different places on the journey. But a consistent question that comes up from educators and parents too, is okay, so if I do have a student who's struggling, I'm not really quite sure what I do, you know, some things seem obvious, but others not so much. And there's still a lot of questioning around. Okay, so I do I have these students who are struggling, and I'm really still not sure what I'm supposed to be doing. And this is a really good question. It's a legit, legitimate, very good question. So that's gonna be kind of the topic we have today. And we'll we'll obviously go different places in the conversation. But that's going to be the gist of the conversation today is talking about this very, very important subject. And we'll kind of break it up again and into our backgrounds, which is so nice to have, because I love also hearing from my colleagues here. But Lindsey will take that kind of earlier, Section K through three. And we can also remark on and have experiences too, but it'd be nice to hear Lindsey, your thoughts on that. And then Stacey always loving to hear so new educators entering the classroom? And how do you impart to them this very important information when they haven't even had their students yet. And then also, maybe, Stacey, I'd love to hear from you about observations when your students go out to teach as student teachers. That's an interesting experience, too, because that might be the first time they're having a real world experience with this student struggling and seeing it for the first time rather than having you have to explain to them what that looks like. That'd be really interesting. So let's begin the conversation. And we're going to kind of frame it up to with what we know we should be teaching, you know, what are those elements? What does good reading instruction look like? And then those parts of really good reading instruction can often inform us about where a student is struggling and kind of helping your what you know about good instruction, to provide the framework for when a student is struggling, how do I know a student is struggling? Because within the framework, I can see these things. So Lindsay, why don't we talk about because I love hearing about your classroom and the work that you do in your classroom? What does good reading instruction look like?
Lindsay Kemeny:Oh, that's so broad. You know, like, when I think about that, you're kind of saying the framework. There's three main things I kind of think about to make sure that I'm covering in my classroom. Of course, the five pillars of reading, we often call them right. And that would be phonemic awareness, phonics, fluency, vocabulary, comprehension, and those you know, are kind of, you know, the National Reading Panel kind of centers around those. But then I also think a lot about the simple view Reading because that kind of shows a little bit more about how all those pillars interact. And also Scarborough's reading ropes. So in my classroom, I'm really thinking about, you know, I love like looking at Scarborough's reading rope. And then just thinking about how do I address all those different strands in my classroom.
Donell Pons:That's excellent, Lindsay. And thank you for giving that that quick rundown of what excellent reading instruction looks like to you. I don't want to hear a definition. I want to hear a teacher tell me Okay, so I'm teaching in my classroom. So I love hearing that definition. And then let's talk let's lean into some of these pieces. Lindsay and talk about the structured literacy definition to that comes from International Dyslexia Association, that kind of breaks down what that instruction, those pieces, you're talking about the five pillars, and the simple view of reading, but then also, we talk about how it's systematic teaching is systematic, its explicit. And then there's that third element diagnostic. And that can often be the sticky widget, but it's the really critical piece for the struggling kids in the classroom is the diagnostic piece. So as an educator, Lindsay, in your classroom, tell me how that explicit a systematic and explicit and diagnostic help you within teaching.
Lindsay Kemeny:some kids are going to pick up on things, right, but others aren't. So if I just the whole class, I'm going to explicitly teach like the th diagraph. And how we can spell with that and how we can read with that. And I'm just going to be really clear and concise in my directions, right? That includes like for vocabulary, I'm going to use a student friendly definition, you know, so just explaining things, systematic. I think a lot of like, the routines and procedures we have in our classroom, because if those are really consistent and set, then the students don't have to, like they have more energy to think about what they're learning versus, like what we're doing in the classroom, right. So it just kind of helps everything run smoothly, and they can really focus on the new thing that we're learning. And diagnostic is huge. And especially when you're talking about those ones who are struggling, because that's really is going to come into play because you need to find out where they're struggling, what are they struggling with? Exactly. And we've got to go in and see where those holes are. And a lot of times with diagnostic, I think of working backwards to as we try to figure out where the breakdown is happening. So if you have someone in third grade, let's say, and the teachers like, Oh, they're not comprehending, before we just let's work on comprehension. First, let's see if the underlying skills are there. Like, how is their fluency? Oh, it's not good. Okay. Why is the fluency not good? Now, let's look at that. And we're gonna go, Are they accurate? If they're accurate, okay, awesome. Now, we're just gonna work on fluency. If they're not accurate. Let's go down more and say, Okay, where's the weakness? How's their, you know, what phonics skills are they missing? How's their phonemic awareness? Can they blend sounds together? You know, so just kind of backtracking.
Donell Pons:Yeah, I love that. And Stacy, you've been listening. And I hope you have so many things to say, because I know I have questions for you if you do a whole array of things to jump in with. Okay, this is Lindsay, seasoned teacher in a classroom. She's obviously taking information that she's learning and has learned and will continue to learn. And she has a real world classroom to apply it to. So she has scenarios in which for this to make sense. What do you do with those students where this might be the first time they're hearing this information? And in addition, they need to visualize themselves working with students?
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, I love that question. I heard this recently. It might have been Adam Grant, because I'm kind of a fan of his. But he said knowledge is efficiency. And I think it starts there. And of course, I'm going to say that because I'm at the pre service level, right, right, currently, but I have seen that with my own students, when they understand the things that Lindsay talked about, like the simple view of reading and Scarborough's reading rope, and other things like Eries phases of word recognition, then they know there's a breakdown on what to do to move a student to the next phase, right. So those kind of theoretical underpinnings are more important than we think. I would also add that four part processing model of word recognition. So if we're watching a student struggle, we can say okay, is do you think there's an issue with phonological processing or orthographic? Mapping? And do you know, I think Lindsay also mentioned this too, but you can have students with the same score on a screener, but for totally different reasons. Right. So that assessment piece is really important. I do teach my students to start with assessment, and then teach. It's been really interesting to observe that, but as a teacher, I feel like I remember being trained a lot in the three queueing system. I could do a miscue analysis. I felt like really proficiently, but honestly I I never 100% understood it, or even 50%, right? A lot of it to me seemed, I don't know what the word is maybe inconsistent or shallow. But now, as I learned more, and I watched students, whether they're struggling or not, then I can start to inform where my instruction needs to go based on what I'm seeing based on these really solid foundations of Science and Learning. So I don't think we can ever undersell that part, right? You've got to know. And then the application to you already talked about explicit instruction. And I was thinking, as someone who, in my education, especially my early education, everything seemed to come very easy to me. But I still benefited from explicit instruction, I remember occasionally hearing a definition of something that I felt really familiar with, or more explicit, you know, information about it, and just something else in me, turned right, like, okay, now I know more, and I can do better. So I think all of those things come into play. Not only knowledge, but time and practice applying the buying all of that. So, Donell, you say this frequently, is we're learning these new things give ourselves grace, you know, not everyone can listen to a struggling reader and pinpoint exactly where the problem is, without a lot of practice and knowledge.
Lindsay Kemeny:And I used to really teach, like, I did not teach explicitly or systematically, and I, the way I was taught in college is that, you know, students would just naturally develop into readers as long as they're reading, and we're waiting to them, and we're getting with them. And that's wrong, you know, some students maybe, but the majority know they're going to need explicit instruction. So But before, what I would do is, I mean, I would give them books, and then I would kind of expect them, like if they saw from the picture, and they saw that the word was boat because of the picture. Then on the next page, when they had the word float, I would kind of you know, expect them to know that, because they had boats, there's the Oh, eight oh, and they could just kind of figure that out on their own right. That's a terrible way. For a majority of our students, they're not going to learn how to read, they're not going to discover it on their own, especially those strugglers would discover it, they would have already discovered it, right? And they're struggling. So it's just a such a difference now, because now I'm like, oh, okay, I'm gonna teach the vowel team OA spells OA, and we're going to practice reading and writing words with OA, and we're going to read a passage that has a lot of OA words, and it's just completely different than what I used to do years and years ago, you know, where I just didn't even realize, and even like, back then, it was just like, I'm giving kids the books, they're reading, uh, we exhausted that reading level, I guess we're gonna go to the next reading level. And it really wasn't clear how to move them from level to level, it wasn't clear to me either. And now that I've just learned so much about, like, what happens when we read all the different things that happens when we're reading the things that need to happen that we need to learn? Now, you know, I can look at a struggling student and listen to them read, give them a little phonics survey or something and I say, Aha, the breakdown is happening right here with vowel consonant E, you know, they don't know those, or they don't know about teens, or they don't know digraphs. Whereas before, I didn't understand any of that. So I just am so thankful for explicit, systematic, you know, the structured literacy, I just see just such the difference, you know, from before and to now.
Donell Pons:Yeah. And Lindsay just just listening to you talking about when I'm with a student, and I listened, and I hear I might do a quick, that's that diagnostic piece, we talk about your we talked about some more formal ways that we might see a diagnostic piece. There's also informal ways, right? We're observing your classroom and teaching. So there are all these ways we talked about that diagnostic piece being so big, and it really is because we're talking about many ways in which we can see or view how a student may be struggling, or likewise may have picked it up, and they're on their way to move to the next step. That's really interesting. And just quickly, before we move on to any other subject, just want to make sure I talk about those older learners, because I did promise I would address just a little bit of that space for the older learners. When Lindsay talked about working backwards. That's oftentimes what I'm having to do, because I now have the student who has gone so far through their education that they're well beyond that learning to read stage. And they have now cobbled together some really inefficient ways of getting the job done is the best way to describe what I see going on for the students. And that entails both on the reading and the writing cases, they just kind of cobbled together some skills to get them by, it's not really great, don't really, really love it. Comprehension is poor. Try to avoid reading at all costs. Spelling was never good. So that's usually the profile that I'm seeing. And so I am doing that piece of working back. That systematic piece of the structured literacy definition is really important here too, because what it says in there is that you're building upon skills as well, right? You're going in a very systematic way from one skill to the next and that backing down and finding where your bottom is. And then using a systematic method to rebuild for a student who is older, it makes all the difference in the world. And there's just no other way to move forward. Stacy had a comment.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah. And as you're talking, it's just reinforcing what I'm thinking. So my focus in my teaching was early literacy, right, I taught first grade. And then when I became a literacy coach, my focus was k three, but I worked through K through sixth grade situations. And you know, I noticed it so much easier to intervene. That's not to say it's easy, always. But it's easier when they're younger for a multitude of reasons. Partly because it's also easier to identify where the breakdown is developmentally and then plugging the hole right then, by the time learners are at this stage you're talking about Danelle, their profiles we used to refer to them is Swiss cheese, because they do kind of have maybe holes in not such a developmental way, right, they're kind of I don't want to say all over the place they could be. But the great thing about what we know is that even once we identify where those holes are, knowing how to prioritize those is easier when you understand how the ability to read develops.
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Donell Pons:So I mean, this has already been such a great conversation. And I know that we're pressed for time, I could spend so much more time here. But I also want to address another piece that I hear teachers say. And it's really important. And that is we've talked here about what good instruction looks like. We've even talked about the fact that more educators are aware, we're even having some taught before they hit classrooms, which is marvelous having to learn this in the field. And so I often hear another statement from some educators, and that is now that more of us are teaching appropriately and understand how to teach reading. What's the point of even screening for kids who are struggling? What's what's the point of looking for kids who might be struggling, and might even fall into a category of, of say, have dyslexia? What's the point? If they're all going to be getting this really good structured literacy instruction? What's the point of that?
Lindsay Kemeny:Well, some need more. So, you know, those, there's always going to be kids that, you know, it's, it's harder for them, and, and they need more intense instruction than the rest of the class. Right? So you're gonna need to have some interventions. So tier two, or tier three, some more opportunities to practice the thing, more opportunities, practicing in context, writing, and reading.
Donell Pons:Excellent. Lindsay, I couldn't have said that better myself. And that's why I want to lean into so remember, Lindsay just described right there a really good Multi Tiered System of Supports, right, so that you can accommodate and work with those students who will need extra time to pick up on those skills? Yes, we thankfully, if we're teaching really well, in that tier one, we shouldn't have near the numbers of students who need that additional help, right? We do know that too. You can step into a classroom where the instruction in tier one isn't where it should be. And usually, those classrooms have a lot of students who are struggling and tiers two and three and so on. And Stacy, did you have a comment? I didn't want to make sure I wanted to get to I do
Stacy Hurst:I just emphasizing because early identification is so important and screeners. That's exactly their reason. Right? Their purpose is to identify those and then Donell, I know you love this quote, we've shared it probably multiple times on this podcast, but I also find this comforting for educators. And it's by Stanislav Steyn, it is simply not true that there are hundreds of ways to learn to read, when it comes to reading, we all have roughly the same brain that imposes the same constraints and the same learning sequence. And so the sooner we identify where the breakdown is in the sequence, the better we can address it, and the faster
Lindsay Kemeny:and I like to think of that quote, like I kind of think of a train track. So we're all on the same track. But you know, there are differences. So we're not saying every kid is it's gonna happen exactly the same way, right? But they have to go, they have to be on the same track, the same things have to happen, they have to pass the same. You know, I don't know, trying this analogy here, but like, some of them are on a bullet train. And some of them are on steam engine and some are walking on the track, right? I mean, it's just, you know, it's gonna take a little more work for certain students
Stacy Hurst:their own station at different times. So yeah, there you go.
Donell Pons:One comment. I wanted to be clear here too, because I can wear both hats in this place. I'm also the instructor of students who have challenges with reading, but I also have children who have dyslexia and a husband who has dyslexia. And one thing I can tell you about it identification is it is vital if the student does have dyslexia to know. And remember dyslexia can be on a continuum, mild, moderate to more severe, it can also have things that a co attend at a higher rate like ADHD, that can be part of the profile. Also, there's dyscalculia, and the math piece that can go with it, and dysgraphia, which is the handwriting piece. So when you the other thing for screening and providing an early understanding for the student, if they do happen to be a student who falls in the category of having dyslexia, that's an important thing to know. Remember, you have the student for a short period of time, but they will have this challenge or difficulty in a classroom in one way or another in which they will learn to manage for a lifetime. Right. And so understanding earlier is much better for that student, had I known what I know now, about my son, when we figured out that dyslexia was the challenge, I would have been on top of instead of stumbling over the co-attending Nath issue that was there as well, the co-attending dysgraphia, their handwriting issue that was there as well, and so on. But because I wasn't informed, because we never did a proper screening, I stumbled into those things. Unfortunately, now I help other people not stumble, but rather be informed and be able to make good choices for their students. So that's another key piece I think of why do we screen even though we're all teaching, the good things, is this provides very vital information to learners who are lifelong learners who need this information to be successful. And so that brings me to the point that we've mentioned a few things as resources. Remember, as an educator to be familiar with a handbook of dyslexia in your state. Sometimes they are called your state name, and then handbook on dyslexia. But they can have other names as well. And all of the states that currently do have them, I think this last round of legislation, I think we got every last state, there may be one holdout, I'm not going to name names, because I hate shaming and naming states, because we'll all get there eventually. So we just need to nurture and love each other along the path. But hopefully, we'll eventually be there. But make sure you check with your State as an educator, and you're familiar with that handbook within that handbook. Much of what we've discussed today will be in the handbook I've seen many from across the various states. And they all have in their information about what's good teaching practice. So structured literacy of some definition will be in there with a really good understanding. Likewise, it'll tell you about the diagnostic pieces that are available within your state and the ones that are required and what they look like in your state because they can vary from state to state, and how you utilize those as screeners as well as part of a screening program, because I've seen that in parts of the states too, to try not to reinvent the wheel too much, and how you screen and go about screening and your requirements are within those handbooks. So they're invaluable, and they're online in every state, and a really good resource.
Lindsay Kemeny:And the structure of literacy. I just want to point out like, that is exactly what students with dyslexia need. And it's also wonderful for everyone. And so sometimes there's this myth where they think, Oh, I have a student with dyslexia, I have to do something completely different. No, everything that you're learning about with the science of reading, structured literacy, explicit systematic diagnostic, all those things are excellent for students with dyslexia, they're probably going to need more, they're going to just need it more intensely.
Donell Pons:Lindsay, and I'm going to add to that too, because I've heard this phrase that goes along, I've heard some teachers say, oh, that student has dyslexia. So they should be in a different class, because I'm not familiar with dyslexia. every learner is in your classroom, and you need to have an understanding of how I work with those students. That's also called differentiated differentiated instruction. Stacy, you probably have some thoughts there, I hope.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah. Right along those lines, as you were talking about that, and the fact that all readers need all the same thing to be happening in the brain. Sometimes I see with older readers, who are struggling, that we overlook what we think or thought should have been mastered in the early grades, something as simple as phonemic awareness. And I know that we can have lots of conversations about this. Probably talked about it for a long time. But I will say that I worked with the sixth grader. To this day, one of my favorite people, this kid has my heart. And he had so many coping strategies like what if he didn't, he would type out a word he didn't know what it was, he couldn't read it. And then he click image on Google search to see what it was. That's how he learned what that word meant. Those kinds of things, really smart kid as far as adapting. But when I started working with him, we started working on phonemic awareness, specifically, David Kilpatrick's program, the one that he recommends, and I saw the value I didn't expect that to make as big of a difference as it did. So I guess I would say to any teacher who is working with a student who may be older and struggling, don't be afraid to backup the bus go to where you need to start where that student needs.
Donell Pons:And that's totally my wheelhouse, and that that book is equipped for reading success that David Kilpatrick recommends within it has the phonological and phonemic awareness at the back of the book. And I would ask Look, they agree. And I often see if you know, Stacy, you mentioned it, Lindsay, you've mentioned it too. What are the things that older learners need to learn are the same things that young learners need to learn, right. And in that same order and have the same foundational base. It was really interesting. You've mentioned a student that has your heart, Stacy, I've been doing this for I don't know how long. And I am still amazed that I can have students that can make me just totally reevaluate everything that I do, and watching how important it is for them to get these pieces. And I can be moved still this far into it. So that's the other piece is it's never too late to be moved again, and to be to say to yourself, boy, I have a reaffirmation of everything that I'm doing. And I'm going to double down and continue to learn and do the best that I can. Because you'll have students that come into your life that do this all the time for you. And there's currently a gentleman I have, I think I've mentioned it before, he's He's much older learner, and his sound awareness piece. The breakdown was so profound, that he really was in his day to day he speaks no other language than English. In his day to day, it was even affecting his ability to understand spoken language, that's how, but he doesn't have. In the end, when we got to doing it. It was just a real breakdown in phonemic awareness. We've been now working on this for a few weeks. And I'll tell you, when we get together now, he says, I you know, I don't know what this is about. But I think I understand when people are speaking to me better. But what we're doing reading, I don't know how that works. So we have a little conversation about it. But that's amazing. And it's a game changer in a life changer. So it's also never too late to make a difference.
Stacy Hurst:I was just gonna say, you know, at that stage of the game, really, it's the materials that changed not so much what you're doing, right? We made a game out of those one minute drills and activities. And he loved it, he did a really good job with that. So making a game out of it, I would use maybe different phonemic awareness curriculum for younger kids. But we often talk about the importance of decodable texts for students who need it. And we've had conversations about the need for more decodable text for struggling readers who are older, again, not to assume that they don't need that, what that looks like material wise will be different because they are older, and the text that they're exposed to is typically more complex and sophisticated. So that needs to be reflective of that as well. But again, it's the same information that they need.
Lindsay Kemeny:And then another thing to think about, because we're like in the lower grades, we're talking a lot about the phonemic awareness and phonics and decoding side of things. But also, don't neglect teaching those book, the vocabulary, practice questioning with a text, retelling text, background knowledge, all those things where you might not see a breakdown right now in first grade. But we want those things strong so that these kids are really, like supported when they go to harder texts in the upper grades, or they have like strong vocabulary. And that oral language piece in first grade is really going to help them down the road as well as currently. So just like remembering that this structured literacy involves all of that.
Donell Pons:Absolutely. And then Stacy just to I don't know if we answered it or addressed it. And I promised that we would maybe there was someone waiting for us to get to the answer. So I'm gonna make sure I double back and again, get it pick it up that diagnostic piece and you and I had a conversation very quickly you could describe even in a classroom, when you enter into a classroom, what it looks like when a teacher really does understand how important the diagnostic piece is. And then how that helps the teacher informs the teacher in order to adjust instruction for all the learners in the classroom. Maybe
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, for sure. And you know, that we've already just quickly. talked about screeners. And just to kind of segue this using Lindsay's comment, just because we don't screen for things like vocabulary, or background knowledge doesn't mean we can't attend to it and impact it. So then when you're talking more diagnostically, right, I think we can't overestimate the need for that. And I feel like what a good place to start is actually with a very commonly used screener. And that's dibbles or acadiens. And not necessarily the the overall score, but you can start to get an idea oh, did they not do well on the phonemic awareness tasks, or letter naming or whatever aspect of that assessment that impacted their overall score the most is a good place to start with diagnostic but if you attend to instruction with that diagnostic mindset, and Donell, you mentioned earlier, I'm teaching pre service teachers, I have to teach them how to teach the skills initially but we always start with the assessment. We use the core phonics survey, for example, when we're talking about phonics, their assignments, no matter the reading class or to test students and to make recommendations based on what they've learned so far, and what the results of that says. And I feel like if we approach teaching with the idea that assessment is part of teaching, then we're not only going to be able to catch those students sooner, but when we identify what they need, we'll be able to fill the need with our instruction, and giving them ample time to practice to automaticity. Did that answer your question? I feel like I meandered a bit. A lot of thoughts
Donell Pons:you did, and that was really good information. And I'm sure there are educators who are like, okay, that's, that's really great to hear. But then also take it one step further for me, Stacy, and what the classroom looks like when the teacher understands that the students might be on different levels, and not losing track of those students.
Stacy Hurst:Ah, yes. So again, it goes back to assessment that then in your instruction, making sure that you have the time that you orchestrate the time to work with those students give them individualized or small group instruction with feedback, and ample time to practice whatever it is you're teaching them, so that they can clear it off their mental deskspace. Right. So it becomes automatic, and they don't have to maybe focus on it as much. I think it really just comes down to knowing your students individually, not just personally, that there are things like that you could learn about their home life, and including, did they have a lot of ear infections as a kid that could impact their reading development, but also understand them academically, and differentiate based on that.
Donell Pons:And Lindsay, I was just gonna say I, you know, just hearing you describe your students, you know them so well, I mean, that's, that's what you expect to hear when you know that a teacher is, is reaching the different levels and differentiating instruction. It's the teachers, we're all aware that not all the students are exactly alike in the classroom, and able to take that instruction and meet students where they're at provide either that one on one or small group instruction. And that's built into the way that things are done, Lindsay just talking to you familiarizing yourself at the beginning of the year with your students. You're doing all of the things that we talked about, you know, when Stacy said, You're, you're assessing to make sure you understand exactly where your students are at all of those things are happening naturally. Even though, you know, Lindsay may not have said each step directly. I know, it's exactly what's happening within her classroom. And so I'm hoping this discussion today, thank you so much. I mean, we could do this all day. And I'm hoping that if there are specific questions that individuals who are listening will, will feel free to reach out and make sure that we address those. And of course, we'll have other subjects and come back around to different subjects. When you do give us those questions, we do look at them. And so that's always good to do. But this one has been an excellent conversation, I appreciate it so much. And I know that it isn't just a one and done this, we could have gone on for a long time just on this subject. And there'll be other parts of it as well. But just how important this is, as we continue to have our discussions about now that I'm understanding or have a better understanding of the science of reading what that really looks like in classrooms. Yeah,
Stacy Hurst:thank you so much, Donell, for this conversation. It matters to every single teacher, we all have to differentiate and meet needs of our students. So no matter the setting you're in. I especially like talking about this, like it's really important for those struggling, older learners to the confidence that we need to have as teachers to say, we know you need, we can feel the need. And we're all just learning to do that better and better every day. So I really appreciate everybody who's joined us for this conversation and feel free like Donell said, to share anything else that you might be thinking about this. We would open this up to everyone if we had that option. Be an even bigger conversation that we will have to have another time. But thank you so much again for joining us for this episode of literacy talks. And we look forward to having you join us for our next episode.
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