Literacy Talks

The Story Gets Better With Special Guest Emily Hanford

• Reading Horizons • Season 4 • Episode 5

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In this episode of Literacy Talks, the trio excitedly welcomes Emily Hanford, the award-winning journalist and media producer whose work and Sold a Story podcast have changed the literacy landscape. You’ll hear Emily talk about her career reporting on education and how she uncovered problems in reading instruction, which were, in her words, hiding in plain sight. Her work has enlightened a growing audience of educators, parents, community members, policymakers, and more. She’s forthright and engaging, and she’s helped thousands of people understand more about the science of reading and the importance of putting that research into practice. Don’t miss this special, must-hear episode of Literacy Talks.




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Narrator:

Hello literacy leaders and champions. Welcome to literacy talks, a podcast series for Reading Horizons dedicated to exploring the ideas, trends, insights and practical issues that will help us all improve our professional practice knowledge and confidence in teaching reading. Our host is Stacy Hurst, professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor at Reading Horizons, we're reading momentum begins joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education, and Lindsay Kemeny, an author and Utah based elementary classroom teacher. In this episode, we're honored to welcome special guest Emily Hanford, the award winning journalist and media producer whose work and podcast Sold a Story has opened the doors of communication and conversation about early reading instruction. Let's get started.

Stacy Hurst:

Welcome to this episode of literacy Talks. My name is Stacy Hurst. And I'm joined as I am every week by my co hosts, Lindsay Kemeny and Donell Pons. And today we have a very special guest. And I am going to let Lindsay introduce our special guest.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Thank you. Well, I feel like our guest today almost needs no introduction, because she is just a shining light in our science reading community. And my guess is most of our listeners will know who she is. She is an award winning reporter, editor and producer and has been reporting on education since 2008. And if you haven't listened to her most recent podcast series called Sold a Story you are missing out, and you need to listen right away. welcome Emily Hanford.

Emily Hanford:

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be on a podcast that you're a host of Lindsay, we're going to talk about our how long we've known each other.

Lindsay Kemeny:

I know well, we met a few years ago on Twitter, right? Oh, yes. I've met a lot of people on Twitter, which turned into a few zoom conversations. And I remember being so nervous because this was pre COVID. And like, I didn't know how to do zoom. No, probably all pros, right. Yeah. So

Emily Hanford:

time when we didn't know how to do zoom, and you

Lindsay Kemeny:

invited me to speak with you at the research ed conference in Philadelphia. This is fall 2019, along with Jasmine lane, and Margaret Goldberg, who are two amazing educators and really talented writers. And that was so cool. Do you remember that church we spoken?

Emily Hanford:

I do. We were in a church. But I invited you all in particular, because you're all writers, you had all all of you do have written really insightful things about this as teachers and educators. And that's what we talked about on that panel that day, at the front of a church. It's true. No,

Lindsay Kemeny:

it Philadelphia, yeah, a church within a school. It was a school. And then it was like the church there. And it was such a cool backdrop. I just remember being so nervous. And I think I can speak for Jasmine and Margaret, because we were all kind of nervous. It was our first time speaking in front of a big crowd like that. And I just remember, you know, right before, I mean, we had like pre planning conversations. But right before we're sitting at this table, and you leaned over and we're kind of like, okay, Lindsay, I'm going to start by asking you this. And then Margaret, I'll ask you this, and then Jasmine. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, what am I going to say? I don't know what's gonna go out. But it went, it went great. And I'm totally honored. You asked me invited me it was fun.

Emily Hanford:

Yeah, look, let's look where you've gone since I mean, right.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Yeah, it was kind of the beginning of a journey. So thank you. So Donell is a former reporter, and she has a burning question for you. So I'm going to turn the time over to Donell.

Emily Hanford:

Okay.

Donell Pons:

With that entry. So, Emily, it's true. I, you know, Lindsey and I, we've talked about this before and Stacy, that my first career and it wasn't very long was as a journalist, and I worked for a local paper here it was newspaper print. And I happen to marry somebody who has dyslexia, and I didn't know it. And that really became my life focus. And then later, I would go on to have two children who have dyslexia. And in order to get one of my children to be able to read and participate in the school system, it was everything. I had to do it. And so it was going back to school, getting two master's degrees in education, a certification and special education. I know my story is something you probably are familiar in hearing in your journey of reporting. Yeah. My question to you is because you have literally become the face in for many people of the science of reading movement. If somebody is unfamiliar with what's happening in the science of reading, we often point them towards the work that you have done in order to get a framework for what's happening. Did you envision that you would become the face of this when you

Emily Hanford:

Oh, well, no, because I Didn't there was no started? sort of this that I thought about being the face of exactly. And you know, I might be the face of a movement to a lot of people. I mean, I'm a reporter, I feel like I'm a reporter. First, I don't feel like I'm leading a movement are really part of a movement. I understand why people point to me, because I think what I've done and what reporters do is help to translate some things, right, so and speak to a larger audience, audience, and make some things sort of accessible and understandable. And connect some dots about the reading research itself, and through interviews and documents, requests, like understanding something about how reading is taught. So that's what we do. As journalists, we communicate complex issues and important stories, and we hold people accountable and ask important questions. So that's why I guess I've become that, because I've done this reporting, that's gotten a lot of attention. I think, really, because in so many ways, this really was a problem that was sort of hiding in plain sight. So you have your story. And you all of you have your story, I'm sure. I mean, I don't know Stacy story yet. But now you've told me a little bit of yours. And I know a little bit of Lindsay's, and I can predict potentially what yours might be Stacy. And yes, but I think what you're asking me is did I have any idea what kind of impact this reporting would have had? No, I started doing many years ago back in like 2016 2017. So it's been we're going on seven years now. Which is a long time to be on one topic. And no, I couldn't have predicted I couldn't have predicted that I would have been staying on one topic for this long. And I definitely could have couldn't have predicted that it would have such a big impact. But the Sold a Story podcast has surprised me in some ways with its impact, but in other ways not. Because I knew there was a big audience for this, I knew this was an important story that sort of needed to be uncovered. And I think it had been uncovered for a growing number of people who are in education, or otherwise, have some real personal story here, like being a parent, of a child or a spouse of a person who struggles with reading, for example. But I think one of the things that the Sold a Story podcast has done and one of the things that we wanted to do was to bring it to an even bigger, more general audience. So I was really hoping that I was going to start hearing from people who press play on that podcast, for some reason, not because they're a teacher or a parent of a struggling reader, or because they even think they care, certainly, because they don't really think they care about how kids get taught to read, or maybe they don't even care about education or don't think they do, but they got interested in it, because it's an important story for anyone who's a citizen and a taxpayer to know about. And I think it has brought a lot, it's widened the audience and really brought this to a general audience that I think that's important. When you're trying to make big changes in the world, you need to have a lot of different people sort of aware and involved and willing to speak up and try to make the change that's necessary for the better outcomes that I think everyone wants for kids.

Donell Pons:

I just gonna follow up. So Emily, how do you frame the story? So it doesn't become just a niche thing? And more people are pursuing that play button? Yeah, well,

Emily Hanford:

I mean, again, I think that we had been doing this reporting in the form of audio documentaries, and podcast episodes for years, and on also articles that weren't our website, and they did have a large audience. But in fact, our audience was reading our stuff more than listening to it. And I'm an audio producer, I'm a radio person. And I, that's where I put my time and my work. And I really craft the audio version of the story. And it was actually kind of distressing to me that I was becoming very well known for this work that more people were reading than listening to. And I had an observation. I don't have any good sort of data behind this, but a lot of anecdotal evidence that I think the listening to the stories opens people up a little bit more. I think that we have a way of reading in this culture, we've all learned the kind of reading which is really kind of a skimming and scanning a kind of like distracted reading for what we're looking for kind of online. I know I do that. What I would hear anecdotally is that the people who were sort of most challenged by an upset about what the reporting said, and also the most resistant to it, like really pushed back sent me the angriest emails were people who weren't in the course of exchanges with them. I realized that they had read the stories but not listened. And I think when people listen, it's a different experience. For me, listening is a different experience. I take a walk, you know, it's actually for me listening to podcasts is one of The best parts of my week, my day my life now because it's actually a place where I'm away from the distraction of my computer and my phone. And I'm really like focusing on what I'm listening to. So that's not a direct answer to your question about, I think, what we were trying to ask ourselves, Is there a multi story podcast in here, we thought we had a story that was big enough that had enough characters in it and enough complexity to it and enough unfolding over time, that it could sustain a multi part podcast episode that it needed that. And it's to be able to tell the kind of story that would engage people who think they're not interested in this issue, we really thought we could do that with a podcast. And I was really determined from the beginning to be like, I'm not writing a version of this. There's not going to be a version you can read online. I mean, you can read transcripts, we do make transcripts available. And there are still people who admit to me that they love sold a story, but all they did was read the transcript. And I think Oh, no. So you know, and podcasts are, I mean, the podcasting business is facing a huge number of challenges right now. But I think when a podcast is well made, and you're given the time to make it well, and we have that, that it can really engage a lot of people. And, you know, we've had more than 6 million downloads of the podcast, which is a lot, I always

Lindsay Kemeny:

tell people to listen rather than read. So and that totally resonates with me, I'm a podcast junkie, too, I love it. And so I always say, if you've read it, you've got to listen to it, because you add so much there's, you know, a little background, you know, either songs, music, or quotes that just add to it.

Emily Hanford:

And I think that the sounds of people's voices are what they say and what they don't say and how they say it. This is what I say when I'm talking to students, you know, like, it's very different than finding a quote for a newspaper article or something. Because often, it's the pauses, it's the way someone says something, it's the emotion in their voice, the lack of emotion in their voice. These are things that are really important and and are part of the texture that you have to think about when you're making a podcast.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Yeah, well, you do it so well. One thing I'm really impressed with is how much you've know about this stuff. You've become so knowledgeable about reading. So what was that process? Like? How did you take classes, read books? What did you do?

Emily Hanford:

All of those things. I did. Yeah, I mean, again, I'm really lucky in comparison to a lot of journalists because I have, I have the kind of job that doesn't require me to be like filing a store every day or every week or even every month. And these these journalism is a tough business to be in. And a lot of things came together, I think, for this reporting to have had the kind of impact it's had. And one thing was just the kind of job I have the fact that I got intrigued by this question of how do people learn to read? Like, how does that even work and like I've said, in some of my reporting, and many talks that I've given, it's not something that I ever really thought about. And a lot of people are surprised and think that my interest in this topic must have some sort of origin and a personal story, because it does so often for so many people. And it really doesn't. For me, I was think I was one of those kids who learn to read pretty easily. I have two kids who are grown now. And they learn to read pretty easily a little bit of difference between the two of them. And I had, I had some questions a little bit, but they were total examples of kids for whom balanced literacy was fine. It all came together in time, I actually look back now and think that if my kids had gotten different instruction, they actually probably would have learned to read more quickly and better and maybe would have things could have come together for them. They may be better spellers, although they're actually both very good spellers, and very good writers. So I didn't think about this because I didn't have to. And when I started meeting parents, who had to think about this, because they did all the quote, unquote, right things and their kids still weren't learning how to read. And every parent knows what a big deal that is, like, I know that in a lot of times, when I've written about this, my editors will be like, we have to make mistakes really clear. Like, let's talk about like, you know, if you're, if you can't learn to read, like what happens to like, go into prison and illiteracy and all these other things. And I always felt like I was sort of, you know, I think at a visceral level, everybody knows, you don't even have to give them all that data. Like everyone knows that if a kid is not learning how to read that that is a crisis. That is something you have to do something about. So I was hearing that story from so many parents and so long winded answers your question. I just got intrigued by a number of things. So I started reading a lot of books, reading a lot of articles talking to people, it's great to be a journalist, you call people up, they talk to you. I just talked to lots and lots of people. I did take a class. I learned from a lot of teachers I I've read, I read a lot of blogs, I read a lot of what teachers write about this stuff. I just sort of absorbed a lot of it. And I've been very grateful for the fact that I'm actually a pretty fast reader.

Stacy Hurst:

You're the kind of reader we're heading for it right because you had a curiosity Do you have the means to follow it? I think and my background, just briefly, I'm a former first grade teacher, I was a literacy coach. I've written curriculum, I am now teaching pre service teachers. So I know that if you have limitations with reading, you have limitations of following your passions, and your curiosities. And we do highlight frequently, what goes wrong if somebody doesn't learn how to read, but I think in part because of your reporting, and the fact that our national attention has been drawn to this issue, we can now open up the conversation to what is possible. Beyond that, as well, like you mentioned with your kids, you know, how much sooner could they delve into subjects they were interested in and really learn the topics and the disciplinary knowledge. And just while I have the microphone, I want to quickly say thank you, I might I have a degree also in sociology. And so your reporting actually brought what we call the science of reading movement, it's a movement, and in part because of what you did, I mean, there was a lot that was happening beforehand. And I actually teach my students you are in my timeline, we have the three studies that were done in the 60s, we have Decoding Dyslexia, and then we have Emily Hanford. And because you did bring attention to this issue, which brought resources and the way to communicate what's happening, so thank you. And just, again, I really appreciate all that like Lindsay's question all that you learned about this topic, going into something that you had no idea how it would turn out?

Emily Hanford:

Well, I'm grateful that you put it in a timeline. And that is a key tool of a reporter, we always put everything in a timeline, because you want to see how one thing led to led to another and how things happen in time. And you know, nothing happens. Without a history, everything has a history. So whatever I came along and did is really because there was already a whole lot going on, like there was already a gigantic parent advocacy movement. And it really is parents of kids with dyslexia, who sort of let me know that there was this gigantic body of research on reading, it was really because of them that I started digging in. Mark Seidenberg book was huge for me that came out right around the time that I was beginning to learn about all this. And that book language at the speed of sight puts together a lot of things about the scientific research itself, but it really places it within history. It really places it within what the stakes are here. And it really places it in some very profound and important questions about how did this happen? How did it happen that so much is known about how kids learn to read. And yet so many teachers don't know about it, this knowledge has not made its way into schools. And again, it's it takes a long time for research to make its way into practice in any field. So part of what's going on here is that that is just difficult to do. And that's what we're seeing even right now. I mean, it's difficult to do. And it's not it's a messy process. And it doesn't always go well. But I think one of the things that I realized as a reporter is that there were some historical forces that contributed to the fact that this, that this science has a has had a hard time getting in the hands of teachers and in the hands of the public in a way that they can understand it, and understand the consequences. And I think what's important about journalism, and an important role that journalism can play is, as you all know, digging into this research is quite daunting, because there is a lot of it, and it's very overwhelming at first, and there's no way that you can read all of it. I haven't read all of it. There's there's just no way. And teachers don't need to know it all. And that, you know, you don't actually need to read all of that stuff. There are some very important key concepts and things that have been learned about reading how it works, and why some kids struggle that have very important implications for teaching. But I think also what's going on now is the implications for teaching are still sort of being worked out. Right. So I have quoted other people saying that the science of reading has settled science. And in so many ways it is I mean, that does not mean that there still aren't things that people are learning about reading and that there are still unanswered questions. But some very big profound, important questions that the sort of quote unquote science of reading kind of started out with back in the 60s and 70s have been robustly answered. And we just know a lot of things about reading and how it works. And we know a lot of things. By we I mean, the sort of proverbial we about how to teach kids to read. But I still think there's a lot that we need to be learning right now, from what's happening right now, about how to do this best how to do it most effectively and most efficiently, how to do it at scale, how to take into account the needs of individual Have children how to reach kids who are still not learning, despite best efforts, and I'm sure you all have encountered that.

Donell Pons:

So Emily, I kind of like to follow up with that, because you have a great view. You're You're traveled quite a bit. You're You're involved, you know, people you network, you, Lindsay is one individual of many that you network with who are involved. What are your thoughts about what you're seeing in terms of the movement itself, the progress that's being made? Is it at a pace that feels like it's it's headed in the right direction? What are your thoughts? Because I'd like to hear them because you're just so involved?

Emily Hanford:

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't know if I know what to compare it to. So asking things like headed in the right direction at the right pace? I don't know. I mean, a few thoughts. One of the things I was thinking about before we got on this call today, is the fact that Lindsey and I did talk several times several years ago. And I remember I think at one point, Lindsay, if I'm remembering correctly, I wanted to interview you. And you're kind of hesitant about that. Yeah, yeah. And so this is one of the things that I'd like to say, I think, is really changing one of the effects of this reporting being out there and more and more people talking about it, and more and more other reporters writing about it, too, right. It's not just me. Now, there's a lot of people doing some really good coverage of this issue. But it's opening it up, right, it was kind of like, there was a little bit of a secret, and I and a lot of like the emails that I would get from teachers. In the early years. Were I need to tell you this, but don't use my name. I need to tell you this, but I can't talk to you. And lots of people are hesitant, and more and more teachers are feeling okay, about being really open. Look at you, Lindsay, you've written a book. You're a host of a podcast, but you didn't even want to do an interview with me a few years.

Lindsay Kemeny:

You're not bitter, are you?

Emily Hanford:

Oh, no, no, believe me, you are one of many people who said that they didn't want to talk to me. But also many people who now I see are talking have either written back to me and being like, I'll do an interview now or I see them. They're on Twitter. They're saying things that they wouldn't say out loud before, and now they're saying them? Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny:

I know, my son has always said, You're the one with the brave voice. Mom, you're the one to brave boy, I love that. As you can see, that didn't happen overnight. And it's still scary. I mean, I told you when, you know, I was writing this book, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I'm sick to my stomach about it. I'm excited. But I'm sick to my stomach. And you were kind of advising me, which kind of brings me to a question I wanted to ask you because, okay, I get really disheartened and even defensive, Emily, when I hear people criticize you. And so how do you handle the criticism?

Emily Hanford:

Well, that's very nice of you to feel that way. On my behalf, I have mostly learned to not feel that way myself. So I would like to tell you don't feel that way. Just let it go. I think I've just built up a particularly thick skin over the last few years. And I think as a reporter, you sort of have to have one, you have to be willing to say things that a lot of people don't want to hear. I learn a lot from the people who criticize, like I do really learn from the criticism. You know, I mean, I guess at this point, I do feel like I've learned a lot. So I feel a kind of this might not sound quite right. But like there's a sort of a confidence in sort of what I've learned. And so I can sort of see some of the criticism for what it is. So it's easier for me to just let it go. And you know, one of the great things when you see criticism on social media, you can just ignore it if you want to. I mean, just don't respond. I remember that's about one, you know, someone said to me once years ago, just don't respond. So a lot of times I don't, but I do read it, I do engage it. And I want the people to know, and I actually to tell you the truth feel like I hear less of it. Maybe it's a perspective thing, maybe I've just become so used to it, because even my mother in law will sometimes text me and be like, are you okay? And I'm like, What are you talking about? She's like, I'm on Facebook, and I'm seeing all these criticisms like, oh, well, oh, don't worry about that, you know, or I haven't even seen that. So I think it just comes with the territory. I don't know. I think one of the reasons I'm a journalist, I actually really I have been thinking about this a lot. I don't I just think that personality wise, I am not a very partisan person. I think some people are more sort of motivated, and I don't even mean like, big D big R, Democrat, Republican. I just think and it's good. I think it's important for there to be people who are sort of motivated by I don't know, but I but I'm, I'm not I remember like having arguments about politics over the table at Thanksgiving with my relatives who I never didn't see very often. And I just remember feeling sort of just like, what was the point of that? You know, I just sort of fundamentally just more much more interested in evidence and facts and the criticism is interesting to me. That's what it is. I learned from it.

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Donell Pons:

Emily, I really appreciate you talking about this idea. And Emily and Lindsey, you voiced your concern to that a few years ago, you wouldn't have felt comfortable saying some of the things that you're comfortable saying now. And I would even argue that having been in this for as long as I have having married someone who had dyslexia didn't know we had dyslexia and beginning a journey many, many years ago, to figure out what's going on. And then having children with dyslexia, we felt very much alone. And so this finding groups that are being vocal, and opening the door for more conversation and having pieces that aren't just for specific groups, you can invite more into the conversation. So I think that's a theme that I'm hearing emerging too. And I love all of this because we do need everybody, as many people to come along, like you said, every citizen should be interested in how we learn to read and how well we're doing at it as a nation. So I'm loving what I'm hearing here about opening up the conversation, because I have to say, it's far less lonely, to have these conversations. And my husband who now proudly talks about having dyslexia, he's okay with it, he's welcome to talk about it. That didn't come until he was like 49 years old, he lived his entire life trying to hide this thing, right? So I'm loving that you're talking about opening up the conversation making it okay to talk about these things.

Emily Hanford:

because of this reporting, and that it's out there, I'm feeling okay to kind of reveal this thing that felt like a source of shame and a secret for much of my life. That is really moving to me. The other thing I would say about what you just said, I think you're right, that there is sort of a movement. I'm a journalist, I don't see myself as part of a movement. I think it's important for people who are sort of within this movement to, like, always be taking a deep breath. And recognizing not to believe in anything new too much like keep stay open to critique and criticism, engage the critics, or at least listen to them. Even if you're not responding to them. You're just listening. And like everyone needs to sort of keep an open mind and an open attitude that we you know, we may discover some things we think are good practice that there are better ways to do it. But don't believe in any one idea, or any one person or any one thing or any one approach so much that you're not willing to question it. I think it's really, really important for everyone to just take that chill pill about all this.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, that's good advice. And you know, the things. It's, it's interesting, Emily, when the stakes are so high for somebody, I'm always thinking in my mind, no matter what I know, today. I sure hope I know more next week, I hope no more in two weeks, right? Because it's so the stakes are so high for people to know the most I can know to help them. Right.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah. The whole time. We've been talking I've been thinking, after all your reporting, and your engagement in this all call it a movement now. What advice would you have specifically for teachers that whether they're in a situation where they're in a balanced literacy school or district or not, maybe they're in a district that is just embracing the science of reading? And I think, yeah, I just love to hear what you'd have to say to them.

Emily Hanford:

I mean, I guess I'll sort of say what I feel like other teachers have said to me, or what I've learned from other teachers, I don't know that I really have great advice for teachers, I guess what teachers have said to me that's helpful to them. Or maybe they're just going to sound so obvious, but like, talking to other teachers, finding the other teachers who are, you know, having the same questions that you are finding really like trusted colleagues who you can really go to and like, you know, I was just talking to her she's a day who's who's using like a, I think, a good like phonics program, but she's having some questions about some things in it. She's like, you know, I think there's some things in here that aren't that aren't really that great. Like, I think a lot of this is good. But I'm wondering about this, and I'm wondering about that, like, find the colleague who you can talk to like, this is why I think at the end of the day, this is this is so much about like teacher knowledge. That's the most important thing here. And of course, that's been a big part of the organizing principle of balanced literacy. And one of the reasons why I think it's been as powerful as it has been, is like, this should be about the teachers. In the teacher knowing best, and I think that's true, that really does resonate with people. But that's why I wanted to point out, you know what there are a lot of teachers, a lot of teachers are telling me, they don't know very much about how to teach kids to read, they don't know what they should know, they are realizing that they were taught some things that aren't right. And so it's great to think we have a system where we really should be trusting teachers. And this should be about teacher knowledge. But we need to make sure teachers really have the knowledge and have the right knowledge. And you know, teaching is hard. I mean, I've never been a classroom teacher. But I certainly feel like I've learned a lot in my many years of reporting, and from being in classrooms, about just how much teachers need to deal with and do. And there are so many teachers who are taking on this reading thing, but then you also have to do all kinds of other stuff. So the only thing you have to do, we have to teach math and science and social studies. And these things, of course, are all connected, and you've got all kinds of other things going on in your school, the kindergarten teacher down the hall left, and there's not a lot of interventionists and you know, all kinds of things, behavior problems, school, like so much stuff. So I think it's important for everyone to like, give themselves a break to Well, here we are talking in the summer, is this going on in the summer? Are we gonna, and like this is the time that teachers can like recharge, and, you know, connect with each other and learn more. And I guess at the end of the day, really digging in, if people are listening, who are at all resistant, this whole science of reading thing, like just find a way you can start read something, listen to something, find someone you can talk to about it.

Stacy Hurst:

Thank you. And along those lines to in all of your reporting, I know you've mentioned higher ed, how much have you been able to really delve into that area? Yeah,

Emily Hanford:

I mean, in a lot of ways, that's really where a lot of it started. I mean, one of the things, of course, my reporting is the only see like the tip of the iceberg in terms of the stuff I've actually like learned and dug into. So I actually feel like the Higher Ed was a big part of my focus for a long time, you can hear some of that in the hard words documentary from 2018. And I feel like what's happened is I've learned sort of a lot, and then you and then I put a little bit of it in these documentaries and these articles that I write, and then they kind of raise new questions, and I go on to new things. So I feel like what I was hearing from a lot of people for years is higher ed is the problem here. The schools of education, it's the fact that teachers aren't being taught what they need to know about how kids learn to read. And yes, there's tons of evidence that says true. And so but then one of the, you know, so I wrote a little bit about that sort of talked about the consequences of that talk to his teachers who talked about that, presented that but all along, I was thinking, Yes, I think that's true. But if we all had a magic wand, and we could fix teacher prep right now in a second, which we know, we can't, it wouldn't solve the problem. Because there are all these teachers who are in school now and all these kids who are learning from them now. And there's a lot of professional development that goes on, what looking at higher ed got me thinking is, what are the ideas teachers have in their head, about how kids learn to read, what they need to be taught and why kids struggle? Where did those ideas come from? So some of those ideas come from teacher prep, either they're not taught very much at all, or they're taught some of these things that turn out not to be best practice. Where else is it coming from? Oh, a lot of it's coming from professional development they get in schools, a lot of it's coming from the actual curriculum, you learn things about reading, maybe without realizing it from the curriculum you're teaching. So that was sort of how I got into sold a story like to answer this question, how did this happen? We had to understand that there are ideas and teachers head and all of our heads about how kids learn to read, because I really do think it's almost like a think culturally sort of writ large, unless you're forced to think about it in another way. Well, actually, these are sort of two contradictory ideas that are hard to hold in my head at one time. I think there's a widespread belief that learning to read is a lot like learning to talk that if you just expose kids to books that they will eventually learn how to read. I think that somehow we absorb that from the culture. I think that that is an idea that's really strongly out there. Anytime anyone, me or anyone else writes about this in the New York Times, all you have to do is read the letters to the editor to be like, Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, there's that idea. And then there's, there's a lot of like, well, parents are really responsible for teaching their kids to read, not really school, because the idea is, if you read enough books to them, they'll learn how to read. So I think that's actually like a fundamental belief. But then this other thing, I think there's a key instinct, which is, kids do need to sound out words like when you are reading books to little kids, I think instinctively a lot of people not necessarily everyone, but I guess a lot of those those of us who do know how to read will instinctively sound out the words point to the letters talk about little bit about the letters in the words. And so the fact that that kind of like got put aside in school is kind of odd. Because many teachers have said to me over the years like I had a gut feeling something wasn't quite right here. Like, I think I should be teaching these kids a little bit more about these like letters and sounds and how they work. But I don't know very much about that. I don't know how to teach that to little kids. And I'm kind of being told that's not that important. So you don't know what to make of those two things. So it's like, these two beliefs that seem contradictory when you start to examine them. And they are kind of contradictory. One is like, as long as you read enough books to kids, they'll learn how to read. But oh, kids, really, you really need to sound out those words. And that's how you get a lot of kids who I think get a lot of what they need, learning to read by sitting on their parents caregivers lap, and getting a lot of that reading to them and sounding out the words for some kids. That is enough. But we know that a lot of kids aren't getting a lot of that. And there are a lot of kids who are getting a lot of that. And that's still not enough for them,

Stacy Hurst:

though, too. And I think from personal experience, and what I've seen with my students to whatever we teach them in higher ed, right. And at my university, we're trying to do right by the science, they are put in situations where it's so much easier to go with the flow. And so if a teacher has been using, you know, certain curriculum for a long time and their grade level, they're just then you know, they're gonna say, just do what we do, it'll be easier. And then it gets perpetuated, I'm trying to teach my students to stay focused on the research and the science because like you as a reporter, science is objective, if you do it the right way, right, if you can read it the right way and apply it the right way. And then we don't fall prey to, you know, falling people. And we're all flawed. So maybe not a good idea in the first place, although many people are very inspiring. But yeah, I think that's part of it. And I know, in my master's thesis was on teacher knowledge, I feel strongly about that. In fact, I think the whole reason I got a sociology degree, is because I felt like the Elementary Education Program was not academically stringent enough, I was just immersed in balanced literacy. And it literally was around kids in books, and they'll learn how to read my favorite quote, marinate them in text, right? But I think one of the things that you maybe to keep in mind is just that we're always learning to as teachers and learners first, always, but again, so appreciative that you're reporting brought that to the fore, of so many people's minds. I know when I did that master's thesis I did, I replicated Louisa Moses teacher knowledge survey, I was lucky enough to give it to many educators pre service and in service, but I could not get college professors to take that survey. They were very resistant. So

Emily Hanford:

did you get any sense of why Was anyone? Did anyone tell you why?

Stacy Hurst:

No one No one did. He was very clear that he didn't agree with the premise because the name of the survey is basic language constructs needed, you know, to teach, and he felt that that was not a proper premise. I remember one conference I was in, and Kenyatta Goodman, where it was a panel. And P David Pearson was on the panel as well. And this was a research conference. It was the international Reading Association at the time, but it was their literacy arm. And I wish to heavens I knew who this teacher was. And I think she was a graduate student at the time. And I think he David Pearson Might have even been her chair or something. And she contradicted Kenyatta Goodman, in that session, she had the guts to stand up and say, I don't think this is right. And even at the time, I was like, Oh, I mean, I agreed with her. But no way what I've said that right, and he put her in her place. And it was that though it was that philosophical difference that goes back to what you said. Some people think reading happens more naturally, and others know differently. So yeah, I think that might have something to do with it. And your reporting with Ken Goodman. I was so riveted literally listening to that, because he was somebody I followed. Right. And he was an early hero of mine. Yeah. And just hearing his opinion, I think gave insight as to why I got some resistance to

Emily Hanford:

I mean, I again, this goes back to what I said before, and I think was, I think part of what is appealing to people who don't think they're interested in reading, why they're interested in Sold a Story, because I think it's telling the story about something that we have to reckon with in a lot of our culture, which is, how do people come to believe in certain things come to follow certain people how difficult that is to un-believe something that you once believed in, especially if you've if you've made money from it or it's part of your professional reputation, you've put yourself out there in any way. It's very, very difficult to do that. But again, just like you said about Have that teacher who was willing to stand up and question the Goodmans, it's important to make sure that whatever you yourself have come to understand that you're not communicating in a way where no one else is allowed to question it. Like, that's what I mean about paying it like being open to and listening to the criticism, learn from it. Don't ever do whatever you're doing in a way that is going to make it so that no one's willing to ask you a question. The question doesn't have to be a challenge. The questions, the learning opportunity, and maybe the question has an incorrect premise. And maybe there's a simple answer to the question. But maybe not. Maybe the question is asking you to reconsider something that you are, that you thought that you thought was true, that might not be true in quite the way that you thought

Lindsay Kemeny:

I was so excited that you did a couple of bonus episodes have sold a story. And so I'm wondering, will there be more? What are you working on now? And what's coming up next?

Emily Hanford:

Good questions. I think that there's a lot more to report on this. And I think one of the things that needs to be really reported on now is what's happening now, like all of the you know, where's it working? Where's it not? Why? What are we using to measure it? What are the challenges? There's a lot of challenges out there and to making this work. So I really hope that I can do that kind of reporting. So we're still sort of working on what that will look like. And so I don't know for sure yet. And I'm very excited to be taking a lot of vacation time I haven't taken over the past few years this summer. So going away for two weeks in July and two weeks in August. I'm super excited about it. And then I'll figure out what's next in the fall.

Stacy Hurst:

Well, I imagine you'll come back super refreshed and recharged. And so we probably have a lot to look forward to.

Emily Hanford:

And I continue to like learn from everybody else. You know, there's like there's just, there's, it's hard to keep up with it all. That's one of the reasons I'm excited to go on vacation actually is this you know, as you know, there's so much going on, it gets overwhelming. And as a reporter, I tried to like keep track of it all and put it on my timeline and put it in my notes. And I have so many unanswered emails and things I need to file. Ideas I need to put in documents and organize and so many so many threads to follow up on

Stacy Hurst:

Donell. Lindsay, any other questions? For Emily? Emily, anything else you'd like to say? Or what anything you're wondering about currently,

Emily Hanford:

I'm just so glad that that, that teachers or that you all to from your different perspectives and education have put together, have this podcast like it's just, I just love the teacher involvement in all of this, because I think what has been such a problem with efforts to get this right in the past has been that a narrative that this is anti-teacher has somehow taken hold. And I just I just think you all know that this isn't, you know, and I just think the more and more teachers are writing about it, and speaking about it, and talking about what they're doing that's working and not working. I just think, you know, can't let that narrative take hold this time.

Stacy Hurst:

Emily, I love that you said that. Because I think you really have helped give teachers a voice, which is another element of a social movement. You would think that that? Yeah, I need to go back and review my notes. But I'm pretty sure that having that ability to communicate and teachers were frequently the people who weren't listened to right. And so I thank you for that. I also, as we've been talking, and Lindsay mentioned, we have all listened to all of your Sold a Story, I assign them my students respond to them. And I've been thinking over the years, we've all had conversations with you in our heads, whether you know it or not, whether we email or not always that like, Oh, if I were in front of Emily Hanford, this is what I would say or share. So thank you for that dialogue, even though you're not aware of some of it, but it's been very awesome. Thank you so much for your work. And with that, I guess we will end this fantastic episode of Literacy Talks. Thank you again for joining us and thank you to all of our listeners. And we will see you next time on the next episode of Literacy Talks.

Narrator:

Thanks for joining us today for Literacy Talks. The podcast series for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. We invite you to join the science of reading collective are a free community and resource hub so you can stay current with new ideas, free webinars, resources and more. And be sure to visit Literacy Talks online for resources, access to every season's episodes and more at readinghorizons.com/literacytalks. It's an exciting time to teach reading and ensure your students reach grade level proficiency this school year. Literacy Talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where reading momentum begins. Join us next time.