Literacy Talks

Informing and Transforming with Kindness, Patience, and Consideration

• Reading Horizons • Season 5 • Episode 7

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As literacy instruction evolves and improves and the science of reading informs classroom practice more and more, we all need to make room for each other’s ideas, perspectives, and expertise. In this episode of Literacy Talks, our hosts ask themselves and teachers everywhere if we’re being too judgmental. How can we approach conversations with colleagues as we strive to improve students’ reading proficiency together? From guidelines for productive conversations to kinder, gentler ways to share best practices and insights, this episode will inspire you to think about ways to help colleagues and grow professionally.

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Think Again by Adam Grant


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Narrator:

Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Brought to you by Reading Horizons literacy talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights and practical strategies that will help all learners retreating proficiency. Our series host is Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor for Reading Horizons. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education. And Lindsey Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author and speaker. Educators need other educators to celebrate successes, and help each other solve challenges in the classroom. When it comes to teaching literacy, we can all grow and improve together. This episode takes a look at ways educators can support each other without being overly critical or judgmental about the way our colleagues tackle reading challenges. Humility, considerate conversations, recognizing each educators own experience. These can all go a long way. Let's get this conversation started.

Stacy Hurst:

Welcome to another episode of literacy talks. I'm Stacy Hurst. And I'm joined by Lindsay Kemeny and Donell Pons. And each week, we choose a different topic related to literacy to discuss and we take turns doing that this week, it's Lindsay's topic, and just the little bit that she shared with us, I think this will be a really great conversation. So Lindsay, will just turn it over to you lead us into it.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Okay, so my question today is, are we being too judgmental. And to set this up, I love this science of reading movement. And we're all the three of us were so passionate about the science of reading, there's so many educators within our movement are just really passionate, right? For good reason, because we've seen the difference learning to read can have. But sometimes I think that we come across maybe a little forceful, and maybe a little judgmental. Sometimes it's a lot judgmental, maybe. And so I just, you know, I see things, sometimes online where I just see the way someone reacts or responds to the question, or maybe someone quite innocently asks a question and gets all these responses. And the people sometimes almost seem like they're attacking them. So do you guys know what I'm talking about? Do you see these kinds of things?

Stacy Hurst:

Yes, for sure. And those very posts you're talking about? Some people even preface it by saying some version of Don't come at me, I'm just learning. Right? So that tells you that that happens? Yes,

Lindsay Kemeny:

exactly. So what I want to do today is maybe just talk about some guidelines that we could have, or maybe just some things to think about, as we're trying to advocate for change in classrooms, some things to think about moving forward and how we're communicating with other people. So you know, advice, thoughts that you know, those kinds of things. But I see this a lot with sometimes terminology. And I think sometimes we're too quick to judge. So for example, you could come into my classroom right now. And you would see a drawer, I have like these labels on my drawers, and you would see one of my drawers labeled sight words. Okay. And I have talked about how I have changed. Because I used to teach these words as a whole, that's what I thought you did is you just had to memorize them. And now you know, if you've talked to me, if you read my book that I do that differently now. And we it's not the best, most efficient way to store words as a whole. And I talk about how we researchers use the term sight words very differently. And now I will use high frequency words when I'm talking with educators in my classroom. I call them hard words. But if you just came into my classroom, and you looked around, and you would see that term sight words, and you could make a judgement, right? And so, and it's the same thing, sometimes when someone says, guided reading, and I think all of a sudden everyone goes, Oh, that's terrible. When you have to step back and say, Wait a minute, what are we talking about here with guided reading? Because it's like the definition and maybe this person is just thinking, reading in a small group of students. And someone saying guided reading is wrong but they think guided reading is reading in a small group of students. Is that wrong? No, there are certain practices. So just to kind of like get things going, and maybe we can go around and maybe share some, you know, guidelines or things we need to think about, as we are communicating in this community. Any thoughts coming to mind as I'm, as I'm talking? I'm

Donell Pons:

just thinking Linds, this was a really good conversation to have. Because I think at times, if you're in it, then you maybe don't see it so much. And especially if you're on the side of the science of reading, and you're thinking, oh, yeah, it's about time, we said these things, right? And so maybe, like, just like in anything, when you're on the side of it, you're thinking, yeah, yeah. And then we're on the opposite side, you think this doesn't feel so good over here. So it's always good to remember right? What it's like to be on the other side, thinking that probably doesn't feel very good to be over on that side. And I think what's hard, oftentimes, is that many of us, and I'm speaking of myself personally, many of us have felt alone. And I felt alone a lot, particularly as a parent of a child who was struggling with reading, and ended up over at the school and having conversations to say, this just isn't working. I, you know, can you help me? I'm not quite sure what's even going on. But I know it's not working, what can we do? And there were few answers. And there felt like a lot of judgment towards me at the time. And and whether that was intentional or not, it felt that way. It was things like, well, you know, parents who read with their children in at night, every day, those students tend to do better things like this. And I felt like, well, I'm doing all of those things. And so again, I think, at least for me, and maybe there's some other folks who who can relate to this, I think you do need to remember that it doesn't matter what was said to you in the past, or maybe how you felt, but it never feels good to be that person. And that is always a good refresher for me in a conversation. Or if I see a post or a conversation or something, not to make, as you say that judgment call that leap into thinking, Oh, I know exactly what's going on here. None of that is good. But instead doing a lot of well tell me about what you're doing. So let's take your classroom, for instance, Lindsay, if I stepped into your classroom, and I'm using the same philosophy that I'm talking about, then I would start with Hey, Lindsay, I see sight words on that drawer. Tell me about sight words, because I hear a lot of different things about sight words, what are you doing with sight words, and opening up the conversation that way? It's just a thought. Great.

Lindsay Kemeny:

So you know, kind of two main things there to stop. Think about when you were the learner, right? When you are new. And also Donell, you're asking questions. And I think that's really good. And, gosh, I heard someone talking about this, as they were, you know, speaking publicly about this movement and how to help and asking a lot of questions. Because if we just attack attack attack, it doesn't move the needle, and that person doesn't want to change. But asking questions is going to help. I think both of you kind of understand. And before you make a judgement, you're asking questions, to see what is going on, and maybe how you can help. Stacy, have you thought of any maybe guidelines? Anything? Well, I

Stacy Hurst:

actually, as you guys were talking, I was thinking about a couple of people early on, who brought my attention to this very thing. One was Emily Hanford herself. The first time I heard her talk in person she was telling about her experience, publishing her. We know now very impactful stories, journalism, really. And she said, she felt oftentimes, like she had just run into the church and screamed, there is no God, the way that people reacted to that, because she was being very straightforward. And she had anecdotal and all kinds of research and evidence to show that right. So as I thought about that, I realized, yeah, that I can see how people would react that way if the information they're receiving is that kind of, I don't know, direct, maybe the word. And then also, Steve Dykstra really addressed this. I think it was a plain talk that I heard this. And his title, maybe not appropriate to say on air, but it was like, hey, dumb a. And his whole point was we can't approach it that way. But what I appreciated about what he said, I'm definitely, you know, there were things like ask questions, remember that we're all learning those kinds of things, but he also had a strategic approach to it. And he did stay in true. Steve Dykstra form, I would say, there are people who we should be direct with and hold accountable because their impact is far reaching and important. So and maybe in some cases, they're making decisions that are not in the best interest of our students. But in case, you can't just come out of the gate with that, like you work with these people. So like, ask them questions, build relationships, share what you're doing. And I've seen it a lot that the data in a school setting will speak for itself, right? If somebody just applies what they know, their students start getting the results that everybody wants. And then teachers are curious, what are you doing, as opposed to I'm gonna do it the right way. And then people wouldn't be as open even if students aren't getting the results you want. So all good things to think about?

Lindsay Kemeny:

Well, and I do think we need to inform, right? Like you were saying, Yes, we can be clear and direct. And we do want to move this work forward, we do want to inform educators and, you know, everyone can improve. But it's how we do it. And we can inform gently, and we don't want to come. We don't want to attack, I think, and I can understand, especially as a parent of a son with dyslexia, I can totally understand being impatient and frustrated, and really wanting to get angry, I can understand that. But usually, that doesn't get you anywhere. And like Donell was saying, like, Who are you directing your anger at maybe this is a new person, but you've never had anything with them. And you're bringing in some baggage that you're angry about, and then you're unleashing it on this person. So I think we want to inform, but we can do it gently. And we can do it without judgment. Because everyone wants what's best for kids, right? And sometimes it's just, you know, there's misinformation, or there's things that need to change. But the person doesn't know. I mean, I didn't know so many things that and I was doing things for years, that weren't the best way for teaching kids to read, you know, and it's hard to admit it, and then and then change. And I think also just to consider their expertise, right. Because also, like, I just see this sometimes with other, like, I've been guilty of this, too, oh, this person is giving a training, you know, but like, we have to remember that everyone has expertise somewhere. And there's always more to learn. And, like, it's not one person owns this term science of reading. It's not just one group of people that can teach others about it. And here's the other thing I also want to talk about, what about the other side? Because I'm talking about, like, how we share this information with others. But what about when someone says something to you or kind of corrects you? We need to think about how we react and take criticism. For example, I had someone that I feel like her tone came across a little ornery with me when I had posted a video of my students. And she said she was upset that my students did not have a clear distinction between er and errr. Okay, I don't know if I said that very clearly. So but there's, it's really hard in my opinion, it's very hard to distinguish between like an E AR, or, and just the are the are like at the beginning of a word. Because they are kind of changes how it's pronounced, whether it's the beginning of the word or the end of the word. And I think that's a, it's a hard phoneme to pronounce. So maybe she was being a little judgmental of my first graders maybe and in the way, the way she, she said it to me like she's like, I don't understand why they're saying this instead of this. And I, my first thing was like, Really, you can't understand or are you trying to take a dig at me? That's like, what I was thinking and then, but me on the other hand, I need to take a step back. And no matter how the information was delivered, I'm like, boy, yeah, it's hard. And could I do a better job trying to teach my students the difference between those phonemes? Yeah, I could. And definitely, you know, today we're talking about today is when I taught them, er, er, and I'm trying to help them learn the difference between this or when that are as part of a consonant cluster of, you know, different things, and I was thinking about it. So I'm like, I can still take a step back, and I can still I should take criticism and get better. Right. So advice. Whenever you're on the other end of this advice, do you guys what would you share? You

Donell Pons:

know, I like that you shared that Lindsay and I think part of the perspective is, that's a teeny, weeny weeny part of your practice you what I'm saying is, take it in perspective, it's a really tiny criticism and really minut thing that perhaps that tweet could work and I like how you brought yourself back around and said, Okay, wait My back's up against the wall and feel Little bit attacked. However, you took a moment took a breath and said, You know what, what would be the harm and me trying to make a distinction? Perhaps she's got a point there. Maybe that might be helpful. I like the way he worked yourself around through that. And it reminded me of years and years ago, and I've brought it up many times because it stuck with me. Dr. David Kilpatrick, I heard him say when he was in a dust up, we'll call them dust ups, people get into dust up. So this space, he said, Here's my response when someone comes to me and says, Oh, well, I have this evidence on the opposite side. And he'll say, Hey, show me the research, maybe I can be convinced. And that really stuck with me, because I like his attitude. He's right at the heart of it. If we really are learners, then we should be open to learning. And if someone brings something to us to say, I know sometimes the way the message is packaged might make it difficult. But if somebody brings something to us and says, hey, there might be additional information here that maybe you're unaware, or maybe you didn't see it quite this way, what if I present it this way? Would that change how you see it? Ah, maybe it would, so I need to think about it. And we need to be capable of having those conversations and being in that space. That's why I'm really appreciative of that story. You shared Lindsay about bringing yourself around, because that might be our initial reaction to a lot of things is to say, whoa, whoa. But then to talk that through and say, Hey, what the How bad would it be if I thought over this and thought maybe be a little more precise, wouldn't be such a bad thing? Maybe there was something I could do here? Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:

it reminded me of Adam Grant gets in his book, think again. And he talks about the four types of ways that we approach these things. These says preacher, Prosecutor, politician and scientist. And this is obviously a passionate and charged subject for many people, which is, I think, why we react the way we do sometimes, myself included, but to keep our minds on the fact this is a science of reading movement, to help us to remember to approach things like a scientist. So the example you shared, Donell was a doctor Kilpatrick. Is that right? Well, show me the evidence, I might be able to be convinced. And I think not only do I need to think about which role I'm coming from when I have that kind of reaction, and maybe step back and moderate it into the role of a scientist. But I also, I think it would be helpful for me when interacting with others, to kind of assess where they're coming from, what role they're taking on in their reaction as well. Because I'm sure from their perspective, it's totally understandable.

Narrator:

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Donell Pons:

Know something else I've got to remember, in this space, too, a lot of this is emotionally charged. Particularly I think, and and you know, it could be corrected too. But at least from my perspective of what I see, I think if you're someone who works with the end result, meaning older students, the end result, that's really hard to carry what you see those students going through. So I think I've often spoken about how you're part tutor, you're part therapist, there is a lot of really negative, hurt, pain, feelings that come with students who have have been in this space, and reading was a challenge. And they never got the help that they needed, they were never understood. And that's really tough to hear that day after day, week, after week, year after year, to hear that kind of story, to carry that kind of energy and emotion and not have it change you or affect you in a way. So I think sometimes in because I'm in that space a lot in the adult space, I have to step back a little bit because I'm right in there, and I can get quite up. I want to hear somebody say something I was just so contrary, and I want to go, oh, but you have no idea, the result. And I have to back away, but I think sometimes we carry a bit of that emotion. And there's fear concern or whatever else that drives so beyond just the knowledge and the research piece. We're all human. And we carry an emotional piece to this too. And if you're really passionate about this space, if you've worked with people who have been underserved, it can be difficult to separate those out. When you have in a conversation.

Lindsay Kemeny:

It can be really hard and so that's something like I think if you're angry, try not to respond when you're angry. Like take a deep breath. And it's so good to consider you're both touching on this like the other person Then, and also just their position, you know, and their experience, is this a researcher, is this a passionate educator is is the teacher in the classroom doing the thing right now. And so when people are sharing their ideas, it's okay to have a different opinion. But we want to be open to what they're sharing, and then consider it and consider where they're coming from. So like, this person just said, that we should do this in the classroom this way. But gosh, I don't know if that would work. Let me think through this, has that person done it in the classroom? Are they doing it? Yes or no? Is the research that specifically says that yes, or no, you know, because we can bring what we value to the table too. And we might have disagreements, and that's okay. But we want to just be open, listen to everything, and then decide what works for us. And I think just because someone we admire, or someone that has a bunch of followers is saying to do something. We don't have to necessarily do it that way. Right. And, you know, I'm not saying to go right against research, but there's a lot of shades of gray in here. And we've talked about some of those, like, when you're making all these decisions, it's like Dykstra says, right? It's, it's not everything is the bullseye. So we get away from the bullseye. And there's some questions like, do we do this? Do we do this? Do I teach this or this? And so I think we want to check our own bias. And I find that with myself to like, also think about the other person, and then what would work in your classroom. And I think step away when you need to, like, sometimes I think I see people start going at it online. And I'm like, No, don't just step away, take a break. I think like, we need to stay humble, too. And I've said this before, like, anytime I go to a PD or session or something, and I think I know a lot about this topic, I learned something like, every single time, I learned something. And so there's always more to learn. And I don't think we should be scared to put something out there. I mean, because it's scary, like, I have videos out there, I will share something. And I'm always scared, because I'm afraid people will be really critical. Well, it's okay. We don't want to come at people, right. And we don't want to attack them. Because it's okay, if you see something and then you can learn from it. Right? We all can. Any other thoughts? You

Stacy Hurst:

know, I'm thinking about the online space, it wasn't something that I had to navigate as a beginning teacher, or educator in general, but tone can be misinterpreted, just so much easier than if you're actually talking face to face to someone and hearing the intonation in their voice and am thinking about something that happened in our science or reading community a couple years ago, with the whole I'm going to say it and you both, you're gonna know what I'm talking about phonemic awareness with letters without letters. And I learned a lot by watching how people who were defending either side of that argument, how they communicated in that space, some of those people I was really impressed with some not so much. Some, I think, even though they held a lot of knowledge, kind of did some damage to our community by being so direct. And so maybe not considering how people would be hearing that at a time that, you know, people felt like they were just getting traction with things. And I've noticed that some of those people aren't active anymore on social media or in other places. And maybe that's they did what you said, Lindsay, they take a step back, and her just focusing on things that they maybe have more control over. But I think that's important to keep in mind too. And we're communicating in those areas, social media,

Donell Pons:

you bought product, something really, I think is interesting and important. And that is we've benefited greatly from having such access to information right in the information age we talk about but you can't say that enough. I think I've spoken before about the fact that I was I was struggling as a parent to know what to do to help, you know, to have my children and my husband, and had very little information that was readily available. I had to go to the library. Thankfully, there was a book I found, I think I told you, I sat in the parking lot read the whole thing before I drove home. That's how hungry I was for information. Fast forward, not that many years. And there's loads of information now available. So that's one of the benefits is now there's a load of information. That's great, that's no longer hides in the dark because there's no information however, with that also comes this other piece that we talked about, and that is the instantaneous response to information that we see or the ability to get on and say things or post things and do things. And that's really challenging and this isn't the only space that feels the challenge of that right but it's going Be if can feel even more important because of the importance of the work that we do. And so you hate to see a state. So you refer to the damage that can be done with, you know, some folks may be stepped away. And we call them dust ups as a way of talking about some of these things that have occurred within the community. But I think that, all that being said, maybe we're at a point now, where I'm hoping we've maybe aged into gotten to a nice maturity level of being able to have better, more considerate Conversations, I'm hoping because, and I'm going to include myself in all of this, I've, I've gone through the whole genesis of the thing from having no information to having loads of information to then posting and seeing a lot of things said, and I'm hoping maybe we're coming out to that part where maybe we're more the scientist and the researcher. And we're really maturing into having all of this information and being able to have these wider conversations, taking our time to really, to really investigate, understand and hear each other. And I'm hoping that takes us even further in our understanding, because we know that we know a great deal. But as Dykstra pointed out, there's a lot we still don't know. And maybe we're ripening into that position where we're sharing, working together collaborating in a way that I'm hoping it takes us even further than we ever thought we could go with the information that we have about reading. And

Lindsay Kemeny:

these blanket statements can be a little dangerous sometimes because it might not you say, you know, someone can come on and be like, Oh, that's terrible. You should do all your phonemic awareness with letters. They don't know what's happening in that situation, or they don't know that. Oh, my gosh, this, these students don't know their letters yet. Okay. So we're not just gonna say don't do all the time with letters, because these kids don't know their letters. And so I don't know, there's just so many different things, I think sometimes we can come across. And so instead of just attacking someone or saying, oh, you should never do this, try to think how you can inform gently, you can say, oh, like Don l how you were kind of saying ask questions, have you considered adding letters, when you do that, I have found that it really helps my students, whatever. But anyway, just thinking about how we can afford because we do want to be clear and direct but without being without attacking the person we want to inform. So instead of just saying, oh, guided reading is terrible, you should never do guided reading. Can you say, Okay, what are you doing in guided reading, one of the elements you won't want to do is teach students the three cueing strategies. And you don't need to track that, you know, the three cueing. But are you having them read in small groups? Are you prepping them and getting them ready to read by going over any unusual irregular words or vocabulary words that they'll need to access that text first? That's wonderful. So I just think, inform as we comment, and

Stacy Hurst:

probably finding that common ground to Right. Like we had conversations about this when it was happening with the letters and versus no letters of phonemic awareness. And I think we out of the gate, I remember conversation we had and we kind of all three concluded it's not a matter of if it's when, and nobody was arguing if I didn't think like, of course, you're going to attach those phonemes to letters at some point. So maybe we focus on that. And then the conversation turns to when do you do that? And not you're right, you're wrong. And I also think there was something that happened in that interaction where there was a researcher who is very correct, had spent their life studying this. And we learned a lot from listening to their webinars. But I think in their passion for the subject, they lobbied a lot of untrue things about a person they made it personal. They weren't focused on their research. And I think that is again, you know, focus on the research the topic, not necessarily the person, because there's a lot about their situation, as you mentioned, Lindsay that we don't know. I have a question in a minute. But I want to hear what Donell has to say first,

Donell Pons:

you've both got me thinking about. Again, I was hoping for this maturing into this space. And it made me think about the early days of my practice, when I was working with students, and how much better I am today because I spend more time listening to my students, rather than making assumptions about what I think I'm seeing with what my students are doing. And spending just that time to get to know and understand my student better for them to tell me kind of divulge their story give up more of what it is why they do what they do. I am such a better instructor, just following their lead, as they show me, hey, this is why I'm doing what I'm doing. This is maybe what I've been through in the past, this wasn't a great approach. This would be a better approach. They lead me in that teaching, and I'm such a better teacher because of it. And I'm thinking about that and these conversations that I've talked about it before about asking the questions. But the more that you do that and come to understand where that other person is coming from then you understand how you can talk to them in a way that will be the meaningful to them. Because talking at them is one way you can do it. We know that can only be only so successful, but talking with them and having a conversation that takes getting to know them to and understanding where they're coming from. And that takes asking some questions and giving them some space to be able to say, well, this is why I feel the way that I do. This is why I'm coming out at the way that I am. And oftentimes just that is very revelatory, and helps us understand a way in in order to have a good conversation. So

Stacy Hurst:

I've been introspecting, as you're talking, you actually were leading right to the question I have. Because I'm thinking to myself, I certainly have, I don't know if I want to call them hot button issues, or maybe hot buttons, situations where I do get a little passionate we've, I've been called candid before. One thing I also realized was that with my first graders, like you were saying, Darnell, I was patient to the ends of the earth, I would give them any benefit of the doubt, I would do whatever it took to help them learn and grow. And I'm not as patient with adults, sometimes. When I became a literacy coach, I noticed that right away, right, because I felt like I was working with people who maybe should know better. That was my judgment, I'm owning that. But I'm wondering two things. I am identifying my own hot button issues or situations. And because I think in those spaces, I have to learn how to better navigate. But then my other question is, and maybe I'll share one of my hot button situations, and then I do want to know if you guys have some to, for me, it kind of is in that area of people who should know better. And I hate to say it that way. But I hold publishers to a very high level of scrutiny. And that's not personal, right? That's not one person that is an entire company or group or organization, who are putting things out to impact learning. And if I am assessing that their intent is not the students, maybe their intent is to make money to affect their bottom line, or to have some sort of personal fame and attention. I'll be honest, like, I think it would be harder to navigate situations conversations, when I think that is the issue. So how can I be better about that, than asking you to?

Lindsay Kemeny:

Well, that's like, what this whole thing is about right, taking a step back, trying to see their side, but I can totally relate because it's something similar, you know, for me is I do get really angry with the people that just seem to have some skin in the game, they've been balanced literacy forever, and they're like, just going to die that way, they won't look at any other research like they have their blinders on. And it's really hard for me to stay patient with them it because they're like publicly saying these, you know false things about the science of reading, trying to perpetuate a false myth that it's, you know, phonics only, or see now these guys are backpedaling or all this, that kind of stuff really upsets me. I really empathize with the teachers, the teachers who are learning or are confused, or who have taught this or who admire this person, but they're doing this and then they're trying to figure it out. And so I try to remember not to hold judgment for them, I'm not so good with the other people or the professors or think people that I'm like, You should know better, you should be looking at research, you should understand what a high quality study is, you know, definitely I could be better being patient.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, I think this is so challenging. Because, again, if you look at the statistics, you see how many students are struggling with reading and how we do a disservice to so many. And that's why we're having these conversations, right, is that what we have done has obviously not worked, that it is very challenging to remain patient when people stay on the same thread and keep saying, Well, I'm just gonna keep doing what I've done for the past 20 years, but obviously, apparently wasn't working very well. That's frustrating. That's really frustrating. How do you have a conversation that's meaningful and doesn't get heated, when that's what you're discussing is never easy. And I think part of the challenge or what I've come to realize over over time is where do I channel my energy that I feel like can be most effective and not get bogged down. And for me, that's been showing up in spaces where I work with my local legislature, and I try to be somewhere in that space to be vocal because I know that there are other folks in the space who need my help to be there. Maybe they're in a classroom and they don't have the time to go up to the Capitol to be able to show up there. So I'm showing up for all of them. And I feel like I owe them doing my research and bringing the best Some information I can gathering information for them. So I think that's what I've done over time is just channeled my energy where I think I can be most effective and efficient, because there's a lot of places you could put it. But that's a positive thing. I was looking for positive ways in which I can do that. Because I'm not going to be able to change everything. I'm not going to be able to affect the change in all the places I'd like to or, or make people see things differently. But where can I put my energy where it can be positive? And I feel like I'm really being effective.

Lindsay Kemeny:

I like that. That's great. We do need advocates, we need advocates in the in the work and what we are asking today is that all of us take a step back and consider how are we being an advocate? And how can we best inform others and help move this work forward? We have an amazing community, we really do. I love our science of reading community. And so it really saddens me when I hear about people turned off by it, and then leave. And that's what I don't want, because we need those people. We need everyone because we want to help every child learn to read and write. And, you know, I think it was Tracy Whedon, who said, you know, adult biases, or adult egos are sometimes our biggest barrier. And so I think everyone can remember to take a step back. And I mean, everyone, the researchers can consider the teachers the teachers can consider the researchers, we consider, you know, everyone in this field and their experience, and it can be an amazing place. I mean, just last week, on a Saturday morning, it was the weekend and I had posted something online to get some advice. I had step by step advice for how to teach my students to stay in the same tense like not switching between Present tense and past tense, I had step by step advice given to me from Mitchell Brookins. I love him. He's so knowledgeable. I had a personal email with Lesley Laud, who was talking to me and giving some advice about something. And I had shared thoughts with someone else about a book, we were both reading, you know, in a in a DM, and I was just reflecting on that. And like, that is so cool. I just got help and exchange thoughts with these people all across the US and Canada, and how neat. And so we do have this online professional community, which is amazing. Let's just make the most of it. And let's consider how we can help, you know, not only ourselves, but everyone move forward in this. So thanks, you guys. Thanks for the conversation. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:

thanks for the opportunity to introspect, and I know that's the thing I'm taking away the most. And I'm gonna just keep thinking about this, like I do some of our conversations, I do think there is a time and a place to be really direct, and maybe not take the time to ask questions and, and get to know where someone else is coming from, but I'm gonna be really, that's I'm gonna think about identifying exactly where those places are. In the meantime, we're gonna try to think more like a scientist in those reactions when I feel myself getting frustrated. So thank you for this conversation. And as Lindsay was mentioning, at the end, just thank you for the community that we have. We love our Literacy Talks community and our science of reading community at large. And even beyond that, just all the educators and researchers who are trying to do the best by kids right and for reading. So thank you for joining us for this episode. And we hope you'll join us next time for the next episode of Literacy Talks.

Narrator:

Thanks for joining us today for Literacy Talks, the podcast series for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. We invite you to join the science of reading collective, our free community and resource hub so you can stay current with new ideas, free webinars, resources and more. And be sure to visit Literacy Talks online for resources, access to every season's episodes and more at readinghorizons.com/literacytalks. It's an exciting time to teach reading and ensure your students reach grade level proficiency this school year. Literacy Talks comes to you from Reading Horizons where reading momentum begins. Join us next time