Literacy Talks

Little Literacy Controversies: Big Ideas to Find Common Ground

• Reading Horizons • Season 5 • Episode 9

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As momentum continues to build for instructional practices and strategies rooted in the science of reading, sometimes controversies can arise. In this episode of Literacy Talks, Stacy, Donell, and Lindsay tackle some of the little disagreements among well-meaning, well-informed educators, all from the perspective of sharing information, supporting colleagues, and strengthening our literacy community. From best practices in introducing the alphabet’s letters and sounds to the concepts of blends and blending, get in touch with the topics and ideas that keep the literacy community talking.

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Narrator:

Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy Talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights and practical strategies that will help all learners retreating proficiency. Our series host is Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor for Reading Horizons. Joining Stacy are Donell Pons, a recognized expert in literacy and special education. And Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author and speaker. In this episode, our literacy experts dig into the little controversies that can sometimes lead to small disagreements among educators who are working diligently every day to boost student's reading abilities, from how to introduce letter names and sounds to strategies for using decodable texts teaching the concept of blends versus blending screening for difficulties without follow up action plans. literacy instruction is a multifaceted, often complicated endeavor. It's no surprise that controversies arise. So let's unpack these small disagreements together and stay unified around our shared goal of ensuring literacy for all. Let's get started.

Stacy Hurst:

Welcome to this episode of Literacy Talks. My name is Stacy Hurst. I'm the host and I'm joined by Donell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny, as I am every episode, and today, we have a really interesting topic that I think a lot of you might be invested in. And if you've been listening to our podcast for a while, you know, we take turns choosing the topic, this topic was chosen by Lindsay. So we're gonna just turn the time right over to you, Lindsay. And have you introduce it and get us started. Thanks,

Lindsay Kemeny:

Stacy. Okay, so today, we're going to talk about little controversies, those little disagreements that we might have within our field, and that we see a lot of times maybe, if you're in a lot of, you know, social media groups, Facebook groups, that kind of thing, within the science of reading, and you'll find people have strong opinions about one thing or the other. So this is your guys's opportunity to bring something up and share with us your opinions. So you can kind of get on your soapbox, if you want a little bit. And then we can react, we might agree with you, we might disagree with you. There might be research on your side, there might not maybe there's no research yet. And let's just kind of talk about it and it will be fun. So I just thought, like, I'll, I'll start with something. And then Stacy, maybe we'll go to you and then Donell will go to you. And we'll just keep going around until like we're out of time or out of these little things to talk about. So I'm gonna start and this one, this one surprises me. Because I have a lot of respect for the people that are proponents of something that I don't agree with. Okay, and I have a lot of respect for them. So I want to like clarify that. But this has to do with introducing the alphabet letter names, and sounds. And then there's a lot of people that are saying, and I feel this getting louder and louder, kind of that are saying we should focus on the sound first, because that is what students need to read and not focus so much on the letter names. And they talk about how the letter names can be confusing. Like W. Okay, the name W, nowhere in that name has the sound. Right? So they're saying that that's confusing, and we should just focus on the letter sounds. So this is something I really strongly disagree with. And I think that it's very rare to have a student who confuses the letter names and sounds. And I say that because in the last, you know, most recently, I can remember let's say the last seven years of teaching in the lower grades, I have not had a student not be able to learn the letter names and the sounds. So I think this is really rare. And generally these people are talking to general education teachers. And I think it's a real misstep to only focus on the sounds and not also teaching the names. Because I think it almost kind of upsets me if I look at Oh, they're sharing their data and their letter naming score is all really low across the board, because I don't think it should be. I think the majority of students can learn letter name and sound at the same time and be six cessful with that. And in this instance, I think research is on my side, because, you know, we've talked about Shayne Piasta, right? And she was sharing that there's emerging evidence that we can teach the letter name and sound together. So that's how I feel, and what are your reactions to that?

Stacy Hurst:

So as you were talking, I was thinking about this, because this is something that comes up quite a bit more, you're right seems like more and more lately. One thing I was thinking of, because the research that I read, it may have been Dr. Piasta's. Research said that it gives them an anchor, the letter name gives them an anchor. And I kind of had the thought, when we're talking about recognition, right? I sometimes have issues with names. I know the person I'm mostly because I'm a teacher, and I have hundreds of students. And I want to know them all by name. And it's better when I do. But how would we go through life if you couldn't refer to somebody by their name? Right? Like even just making that comparison that may not be 100% A tight analogy there, but I think it's important. And I my experience, says, what you've been saying to Lindsay,

Lindsay Kemeny:

So you agree with me?

Stacy Hurst:

I do.

Lindsay Kemeny:

What about you, Donell?

Donell Pons:

I agree with you, too. And we've talked about this research before. And I think hanging out in the space arguing about it isn't getting us anywhere. So we know what needs to be taught. Let's teach it. I'm not going to quibble over what comes first. But make sure it's all being taught and make sure it's being taught explicitly. I do think we might get hung up on the sounds. And that might happen. If you know, consistently, you're seeing students that have sound issues we do need to attend to for those students that we know will have sound issues to those sounds for them, not at the expense of knowing a letter name. What's interesting is I think of all of my adult students, they have the letter names down, they just don't have the sounds down, they got the letter name down. That's not confusing anything, it just never got the sounds down because that a sound issue so thinks just keeping things clear. And I

Lindsay Kemeny:

can see the benefit of focusing more on sounds. And I probably do focus a little more on sound because it is the that is like what they're saying, Well, that's what you need in order to read. But I think you also need those letter names. So we teach those two. Okay, so let's go on to our next, you know, a little disagreement. So, Stacy, let's go to you, what are we going to talk about next?

Stacy Hurst:

Okay, well, honestly, I have one that I put at the top of my list. Maybe the next round, I'll bring it up, but I'm a little bit nervous to bring it up. Because, like you, Lindsay, I have great amount of respect for the people who I disagree with. Okay, so it'll just take me a minute. But I will say one, the one I'll bring up now, are those advanced levels of phonemic awareness. And I know that we're still waiting for some research to bear that out. But the reason I bring that up is because on one level, I get it, like maybe you know, the important thing is that they can read and spell and we shouldn't spend a ton of instructional time at a, you know, higher grade levels on that aspect. However, I have seen. And then Donell and I have had this conversation quite a bit too, because I when I was tutoring an older student, in sixth, seventh eighth grade, I saw those advanced skills work so well for that students reading and writing, reading and spelling. So in so my experience with it was contradictory to what everybody else was saying the research said about it. So I know all readers are different. But I'm willing to hold space for we don't know everything we need to know about this yet. Donell, I know we've talked a lot about it. Did I leave anything out?

Donell Pons:

Oh, look at you trying to drag me into your controversy. Yeah, you directing? I know, there's a lot of folks that all of us really respect having this conversation. And I'm with you Stacy about holding space. I also appreciate that the people that have been in this space are the folks who've been the ones to say show me the research I could be convinced. And I love hearing that I love that approach. I also had the chance to be re familiarized with Steve Dykstra is Bullseye analogy that he brings up to talk about the fact that we have a bull's eye of research, good solid research things we understand and know. But then we have various grades going out from that bullseye of stuff that we know not so much about. We need research for it. We don't know everything. And the more that you can anchor yourself in the research and say, well, that's how I'm going to make this educated guess to move here. And that's how I've seen people talk about those higher levels of phonemic awareness that makes me more comfortable to talk about, here's what I know. So I'm going to say this because I know this, I feel comfortable, that kind of a conversation. But yes, I've had experiences like you, Stacy with using some of that, particularly with older students. And I can't deny how helpful it was. So I'm hoping for more research. This

Lindsay Kemeny:

is an area that I'm I think I'm pretty much completely in the middle now. And I used to be like, far one side, but now I just, I really don't know, and those one minute drills, with those higher levels of phonemic awareness where you're, you know, switching out that internal letter of a consonant cluster or whatever, I don't know, like, do I do this or not? If I do it, okay, it's, it's a minute, it's not like the end of the world, you know? Or do I not? More and more, I'm just doing, you know, word chains, and knew we might be switching that internal unit of the caatsa cluster with the word chains. And I know that word chains are great. I so this is just something I'm just I've been waiting, you know, for research done on those specific one minute drills to find out. And so I don't know, I'm interested to see where this controversy goes. Because this is kind of a controversy right now. And I don't like to help people get so they get really honoree and angry about it. And I don't think we need to be bashing anybody. But it's good to ask questions and to ask for research.

Stacy Hurst:

And, you know, I appreciate this topic in general. But this is a good example, that even so, like you said, Lindsay, it's one minute, right? You're not going we're not going to be sacrificing a lot if we continue to do it. Or if we feel like it something that's benefiting our students. So it at least it's not that extreme right? At least we can say we're not going to do damage. True.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Okay, let's go to Donell. Donell. What's your controversy?

Donell Pons:

Okay, I'm just gonna toss one out there. Throw it on. Everybody jump on. Feel free. It's the one in five. Oh, yeah, do we argue over the one and five. And some people are fine to say the one and five explain quickly where we get one and five and then move on. But others just want to stay there and argue one in five. So this one comes up a ton. And generally now what I've done is I've just sent folks over to Dr. Sally Shaywitz. website, the Yale Center for dyslexia and creativity. And I tell them, look at her one in five statement and just see what you think about it. That's what she's saying. So she's getting her one in five from, and that's usually very helpful, because it gives people a landing page to go look at okay, what are they talking about? Why the one in five? But what do you guys think? Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny:

well, and to clarify, one in five means, you know, Sally Shaywitz is talking about one out of every five students has dyslexia. And so we say, oh, up to 20% of the population, might have dyslexia. But some are saying no, no, no, it's more like 15%. And some are saying, Oh, it's more like 10%. Right. And it's just where you put the cut point. I mean, that is what's hard about as dyslexia is a spectrum, from mild to severe. And it's just where do you draw the line? I

Stacy Hurst:

agree with that. It is it is an interesting, interesting statistic anyway, because we were also recently reminded, you can't have that diagnosis, without instruction, right? So when you take that into consideration to you have to measure the quality of the instruction. So yeah, so it, I think that's just a hard number to nail down. But I think it's in our students best interest to lean into that. And to say, I'm going to have a somewhat significant portion of my students who will need extra support. Yeah.

Donell Pons:

And I think my takeaway from the one in five, and thank you, Lindsey, for explaining the one in five, because I've heard it so much. I think everybody knows. I think what my take away now, after being in this for so long, and mind you, this is personal, again, the one in five is personal, because I have people in my household who have dyslexia, and heritable condition for us. And then thinking about the quality of that reading instruction, and all of my children received interesting reading instruction, let's just put it that way, a variable in terms of equality, and that does have an influence and an impact. You're absolutely right. So I thought all of that is very interesting conversation. But all of that to say is that all I go back to is it's not okay or acceptable to say, well, they're just going to be kids who struggle with reading. Nope. I mean, that's ever gonna take anything away from one and five is nope, To that, and we have good solid instruction so let's get busy with it nope to the some people just struggle with reading Nope. To this, some people just aren't good spellers. And nope to this, some people just don't get math. We know why we struggle with those things. We have better instructions. So I'm just going to that's where I go with it.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Yeah, I think the important thing is just to, you know, see what the students weaknesses are, and go from there. And most of us as teachers, you know, we don't have to worry about diagnosing as a student or not, but it is interesting to think about, okay, I have about 25 kids in my class, oh, potentially up to five may have dyslexia. And if I have a whole bunch more that I'm like, Oh, my goodness, I wonder if they all we better look at the instruction, maybe coming into your class, you know, their structure wasn't strong. Maybe they haven't been in school, I don't know. But whatever the reason, we need to find their weaknesses, and teach them to read and whether they have dyslexia or not, they all can learn how to read. And so

Donell Pons:

Lindsey, you hit another one, I'm just going to tag on to that, because I could be here for days, I'll stop. But you could tag on, we get removed from that by you saying and you said something very important. Teachers don't get to diagnose, certainly in the state of Utah, we don't get to diagnose. But that does not mean that because I am part of the solution for that student, I am part of the treatment for that student, that I then don't have to know anything about it. Absolutely not. Just because that quirk in how we do things has happened does not separate me from the solution.

Stacy Hurst:

And you know, just because we're on this topic, that's one of the things that I had on my list. Absolutely. From experience, it's related. So it's not like a separate thing. But that idea that dyslexia doesn't exist, I think is damaging, also to acknowledge that we have learned so much everybody has benefited from what we've learned about dyslexia. And I think the notion is of I don't have to worry about that I'm not a special educator is wrong and damaging. I

Lindsay Kemeny:

know the you know, just the name dyslexia for my son, it was such a relief, because it's like, it's not just some weird thing, you have a problem with you, you know, I mean, you have dyslexia, this is something you have, it's not your fault, guess what other people have it too. Now you're part of this community. And for my son, I feel like it gave him hope. I know, we've talked about before the the name how sometimes it's not helpful, because a lot of teachers and educators people don't know what dyslexia is. And that's because we've never had, you know, most of us weren't trained to that either in professional development or in college. So a lot of times I find the name dyslexia can be an issue, because then people think, Oh, we better get them color overlays, and start doing vision therapy, which plays into a huge myth.

Stacy Hurst:

And I think more broadly, the really important thing for educators, I definitely see how that would be helpful for your son and for people with dyslexia, gives them some space to work with things, right. But for educators, I think the really critical important thing is knowing how to tell when somebody is struggling with reading. And why. Because not every dyslexic looks the same, either their core deficit might be different. So that's the important

Lindsay Kemeny:

And that's one thing that last why I was takeaway. Right? Right. saying, well, we can't diagnose, but we can see what the weakness is see what the weaknesses are, and go from there. Okay, let's go on. Okay, I think we're back to me, and then we'll circle around again. So the next little controversy, decodables. sometimes. So I will send decodable home and I see a lot of times, other teachers saying yes, but before you send the decodable book home, make sure that you've read it with a child, the child's read it to you. And I disagree with this. If a book is decodable, it's decodable. And if you're giving a child a decodable book that is decodable. For them, that means it contains the letter sound spellings that you have taught them. So they have those skills, and they can practice that at home with an adult or an older sibling. They know all those sounds, then they can practice that book at home. So yes, I send home decodables with my students every week, the first graders they get them on Monday, they bring them back on Friday. And note they haven't read them with me, but I'm not giving them decodables with sound spellings I haven't taught. Okay, any reactions to that one. So

Stacy Hurst:

many right. We all are emphatically in agreement. We've had this conversation, robustly as a team before. And you know, I was thinking to it's like we have have another episode, where we talk about decodable text specifically. And I think the tagline for that episode was that it's like training wheels on a bike right? Well, we don't call bikes ride doubles. But it doesn't matter that I could ride a bike all I want, but that's not going to make a kid be able to ride a bike, right? They can even watch me riding the bike. That's not going to mean they can do it and what we know about how reading develops in the brain, they actually need that experience decoding the text, sounding it out working through it. We're not doing them any favors, if they're over relying on their language comprehension to read a text.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, I'm in total agreement, like you just said, I think on this one, we all agree, but you see a lot of things. That being said, I see all kinds of things happening with decodable books, right. And I think the worst one I see is when like viewer be filling pressure, Lindsay is when people say, well, the teacher has to read it first. That makes no sense to me. If we have indeed taught the sound spellings for what's going to be in that text, and the students should have the opportunity to do it. And I like your analogy. I think we have used the bike before. But it's still not even the same experience with somebody's hand on the back of the seat still holding that is still not the same experience. So all of those things would be representative of not actually letting the student have the opportunity with the text. Yeah.

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Lindsay Kemeny:

Okay, Stacy, over to you. What's the next thing on your list? Okay,

Stacy Hurst:

I'm gonna tread into this water. No, and you know, I truth there. I have a tempered approach to this. But there are some people who were very vocal about the concept of blends, specifically,

Lindsay Kemeny:

this is on my list.

Stacy Hurst:

Okay, so teaching blends explicitly, right. As opposed to blending, which is what we do. And we read, I can see the rationale for teaching blending. And on some level, it seems very efficient, right. But I do believe, based on a lot of things, that we should explicitly teach certain blends, not all the consonants that can blend together, right, there are some programs that teach beginning blends and ending blends, and but I think, to be able to blend, we're going to be more efficient if we explicitly teach specific blends. The other thing is that they become important when we move to syllabication. Because they frequently will stay together in a syllable. So I think that's important. But then when you even consider on the phoneme level, those are tricky things for kids to hear. And I think once they have a solid understanding of the alphabet, then we can help them in both cases, if we're teaching them explicitly, Lindsey, yeah.

Lindsay Kemeny:

So it's a mistake to forget that when we have words, with blends, or consonant clusters, whatever you want to call them, it's a mistake to think it's the same level of difficulty as a CVC word, it's not, it's having a blend at the beginning or a blend at the end of the word, now you are going from three phonemes to four phonemes, and possibly more if you have like a three letter blend, and this is remarkably more difficult for students, and I am seeing that right now, with the first graders This is a little harder to blend for phonemes and requires more attention and work. So even if you don't want to say I'm explicitly going to teach, you know, B LSLGL. Even if you don't want to teach those, you do need to spend more time practicing them. So in a way we're teaching them so why not call them out? I guess, but I don't think any of us are saying we teach them as individual units. Because we don't we know they each represent a sound. And then the other thing is, when I teach unlike if I teach T our blend, that's very helpful because when you say train, we usually go train and soon you're going to have stuff didn't stop writing ch AR, for train. But if they know that CHR is not one of our blends, then that's, that's kind of helpful if you've explicitly taught that TR. And what's the other one, Dr. Dr. Because they're gonna want to write Jr. For jur, you know, drain or whatever it is. And you can say, well, Jr is not one of our blends. So but I do see what they're saying. And we don't want to like lose a ton of time on like having them memorize all the blends, I guess.

Donell Pons:

Yeah. And I'm glad together with both of you, obviously. And we've had this conversation too, and it's been a good one. And I think there is value to teaching some. And we've talked about some of those that would have value in teaching them. What's interesting working with older students is this is where you will see things falling apart for a student really rapidly is on the blending, particularly if you get a word with a blend at the beginning and a blend at the end of the word that can become rapidly very quickly. And the guessing sets in very fast. That's when you notice, oh, this is where we started guessing. Because we won't be able to get through as you say a CVC word. And we might even get through a word with a blend and then a vowel and a consonant. But if there's a blend at the front, and a blend at the end, that's very quickly where pain starts to set in for a student. And it's in those blended sounds. And then you add to the fact that then you're going to start running into some of those welded sounds that we talked about, maybe with the O Lt. The you know, and that kind of thing. If we haven't done the blends well and have a good firm understanding of what a blend is, when we move into that that can be very challenging. So this is a really interesting a great conversation to have around. And like you say Lindsey have just spent a great deal of time, and I'm not gonna spend a great deal of time on the what I consider to be maybe the more approachable blends, but there's room here to be doing some work.

Stacy Hurst:

And you know, I think just on a logical level, too, we've all called out the development developmentally, this is a speed bump for most readers, actually, especially when you're talking about hearing the sounds and knowing how to spell it. So just on that level, it would merit more explicit instruction. So I think that might be oversimplifying it, but that is what I think.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Okay, Donell we're back to you. Do you have another one?

Donell Pons:

Oh, gosh, that wasn't nearly controversial enough. Okay, I don't know if this is a controversial one. But I see it happening a lot. And so I'd love to have discussion around it, and maybe some ideas about why it happens and what happens with such frequency and maybe some of the reasoning that we might be using at different settings as to why it's occurring, screening for reading difficulties, and then there's absolutely no action plan. What is that? I mean, I even walked into schools that have said, Oh, we've got this rigorous screening, and then I'll ask, and then what do you do? And there's blank looks all around. So I'm like, what? Talk to me, folks, what do we see going on what's happening? It's because it's

Lindsay Kemeny:

just a requirement. Like their state says, you have to do this screener, okay, do the screener, check the box done, and then you know, but absolutely, we need to follow up. Because if you're not doing anything with the data, there's no point in doing the assessment in the first place, which

Stacy Hurst:

I actually have this on my list to Donell but I, I wrote it down as interpreting data. You don't just take it at face value either, right? Like you could have a student on benchmark, you get five students on benchmark all for kind of, and they'll still have different strengths and weaknesses that you need to address. So I think looking at the data, and analyzing it interpreting it is important. I actually tell my students, I don't know a very many assessments. Luckily, in the state of Utah, the ones that are required are very backed up with research, right, we have acadiens Burn example, that the data is not worthless, like every piece of data can be worthwhile if you know how to interpret it. So if somebody has taken the time to administer the test, and you get the data, we would be doing ourselves and our students a disservice if we don't look closely at it. And then to your point, Donell and action plan will emerge because it tells a story and tells you where to focus next.

Donell Pons:

Yeah. Lindsay, I let you bring up the fact that this could be a product of legislation because I do think that's a big component of it is in many states, it's now in some sort of piece of legislation, you have to have the screening of some kind and I would like to see an equal amount of focus put on screening with and never seen screening without but screening with always. So it's great, thank you.

Lindsay Kemeny:

And I feel like most people when they're upset about the screener don't really understand it. I don't mean that in like a negative way but just like, you know, just we need to learn like what it's measuring and what we can do with that information. So maybe, you know, this is a call out to like coaches and administrators and people making sure that we help Everyone understand what to do with the data? Okay, let's go really quick. One more each. Okay. And this time, I'm going to choose something that I know, I have a different opinion than both of you. Okay, and it's not the left or right thing stays neat, because we've talked about that already. Is that

Stacy Hurst:

about iPhones versus Android? It's not about

Lindsay Kemeny:

because we all know that my Android is better.

Stacy Hurst:

But doing has sample of the three of us on this call right now. I think given the minority

Lindsay Kemeny:

support, I like being the minority. That's the thing. Like I'm not gonna do the name brand, just have the name brand. Anyway, this one, okay. I do what you guys do. So people say, letters don't say anything. So when people say this letter says, whatever. They're like, the letters don't say anything. I don't hear anything. Look, there's letters on the page. I don't hear anything. And I think that's a little silly, because I don't think anyone actually thinks the letters are going to speak off the page. But and so in our community, we say no, the letters represent sounds, they don't say sounds or they spell sounds. And so in my classroom, we will say that a spells are or C spells, K spells, C, K spells. And so I kind of have switched to the word spells instead of says, but I don't think that little kindergartner, and first graders really get the difference anyway. And I think it's fine. If they're like, a says, Ah, I don't think it's the end of the world. Donell, I've heard you talk about how you're adults, that was a huge thing for them. Like to switch to be saying it represents or spells? And I just don't think in the primary grades, it really is, I feel like it's the same thing to them. So hey,

Stacy Hurst:

you might be surprised to hear this, Lindsay. But I agree. Oh, you do when you're talking about little kids? Absolutely. 100%. We've never ruined a kid now by saying the letter makes the sound. My whole point about that. And Louisa Mote supports this. And that emphatically, actually, my whole point is that in my space, and then remember, I'm teaching pre service teachers, if I use that terminology, they understand better the concept that we're trying to portray to our students. So when they know it, they'll be able to be more effective teachers of that concept. That's where my whole emphasis comes in. With that,

Donell Pons:

I think I'm closer to with both of you. And clearly, I acquiesced to both of you in that lower grade space. And I don't see anything wrong with says either, I don't think you're going to ruin a kid at all. But it has always been on the instructor to understand have a firm understanding. And I think where it's been helpful in watching my older students, because at first this was a bit of a transition, I talked about how clunky it was for some and hasn't really that important, but what it did I've noticed over time is it opened up the possibility for my older students to be able to think about sounds now is having multiple spelling representations. And that wasn't a thing that was foremost, they were stuck on one representation. If it says and represents that's it. And that there but no, there there's multiple and so it kind of opens the door to say this is this is the language we use right here to hold a place for there could be more coming to represent this sound that we're working with right now. I think that's kind of interesting, but not

Stacy Hurst:

far from where I am with my students that are pre service teachers because it helps them with the framework that we're working within. And I think it does help them to know okay, one letter can help spell multiple sounds. Like I

Lindsay Kemeny:

said, I am saying spells now. However, we love the LeapFrog Letter Factory and that there's this great song and I do play it in my classroom. And guess what it's a says, ah, B says,

Stacy Hurst:

that's okay. We use phrases to like the clock tells time clock doesn't say,

Lindsay Kemeny:

Good. Very good. Okay. All right. We only have a few minutes left. Stacy Darnell, do you have last one?

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, just the word fidelity that you know, when we're talking about programs. I think that to me is I've been on both sides, right. I've helped develop curriculum, and I've used it. And I think fidelity is a double edged sword. Because there is no program that is perfect. So if you're doing a program with fidelity according to how it's written, you're gonna going to do a disservice to somebody in your classroom. And if you're not doing it to an adequate amount of fidelity, if it's evidence based and it has the research behind it, then you're also doing harm, right. So this is where I think the differentiator is teacher knowledge. And we heard the phrase recently fidelity with flexibility. And I think that That's where it should be assuming teacher knowledge is they know what they need to know, Stacey,

Donell Pons:

it's funny because that was my last one, too. It was it was talking about using an intervention inappropriately either for not the type of space that was intended for her either way, and then saying it doesn't work. So right along that same thing with the fidelity, and I do love that flexibility and knowledge that comes into play. When we're talking about this. I

Lindsay Kemeny:

don't think I teach most programs with fidelity. Because guess what, if there's like a weakness in the program, then I'm not just going to, you know, I'm going to make up the difference. And I'm going to watch my students. And if they need something, then I might change or tweak something. And that's just so I love what you said, it comes down to the teacher knowledge. And maybe you know, you're leaning more heavily on that program at first. And as you're learning, and you're learning about the science of reading and taking professional development, and watching your students, you'll start to learn when you're like, Oh, now I gotta go off the script a little bit here.

Donell Pons:

And I would argue, Lindsay, that you do a great deal of things with fidelity, you probably do everything with fidelity, but you're adding in a bit of flexibility with that teacher knowledge of yours. Okay, I

Lindsay Kemeny:

like that. Well,

Stacy Hurst:

and it's fidelity to what right, like, I don't think we should have fidelity do a program. I think we should have fidelity concepts that are, you know, the scientific underpinnings of why we're doing what we're doing fidelity to the science. Okay.

Lindsay Kemeny:

I like that. I didn't think of that before I was thinking of fidelity to the program. I love that. Yeah, cuz

Stacy Hurst:

I'm with you. I can't think of one single program. I've used that I've had 100 personnel

Donell Pons:

programs quite yet. Yeah. But your practice has a great deal of fidelity.

Stacy Hurst:

That's a good point.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Okay, well, we're out of time. This was fun. Thank you, you guys.

Stacy Hurst:

It was fun. It was probably not as controversial as somebody was hoping. I don't know who I we didn't

Lindsay Kemeny:

yell at each other, call each other names, or anything.

Stacy Hurst:

We don't do that just for the listeners. Like we don't do that. Oh, there's plenty of making fun of Lindsey for her choice of phones. But bones. Bones, yes. Okay, a pain point when we're texting. That one user, you know, and it textured anyway? Well, I also appreciate this conversation, because it really does help us focus on what's important, right. And I think as a profession, these conversations need to happen more often. So that we can work through and maybe change our perspective, which I have done a lot over the course of my career.

Lindsay Kemeny:

I completely forgot to say that's one thing I wanted to say at the beginning, because I think all of us are unified in our overall goal for you know, more proficient readers and teaching students to read. And so it's okay that we have these little disagreements, and we don't need to, you know, totally like, cancel someone because they think a certain way, we can have these little disagreements, and still we're unified in our goal, and we're all trying to find the best way. I

Stacy Hurst:

love it. And you know, that I hope will take away some terminology that we've been used to using in our profession, like wars, like reading wars, right? If we just keep our eyes focused on science, and on the aim to eradicate illiteracy, we're going to be in good shape. So thanks for this discussion today. Lindsay. It was fun. And thank you all for joining us for this episode of Literacy Talks. Join us next time on our next episode.

Narrator:

Thanks for joining us today for Literacy Talks, the podcast series for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. We invite you to join the science of reading collective, our free community and resource hub so you can stay current with new ideas, free webinars, resources and more. And be sure to visit Literacy Talks online for resources, access to every season's episodes and more at readinghorizons.com/literacytalks. It's an exciting time to teach reading and ensure your students reach grade level proficiency this school year. Literacy talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where reading momentum begins. Join us next time.