Literacy Talks

Connecting Literacy Research and Classroom Reality

• Reading Horizons • Season 6 • Episode 3

Share episode

This episode of Literacy Talks explores the persistent challenge of bridging the research-to-practice gap in literacy education. Hosts Stacy Hurst, Donell Pons, and Lindsay Kemeny examine the complexities of translating research findings into effective classroom practices, highlighting the crucial role of implementation science and the need for collaborative partnerships between researchers and practitioners. 

The discussion emphasizes the importance of systemic support, empowering teachers with the knowledge and resources to apply research-based strategies, and leveraging technology and AI to facilitate the research-to-practice pipeline. Throughout the conversation, the hosts offer practical insights and strategies for educators to navigate this divide and ensure that the latest literacy research positively impacts student outcomes.

Show Notes

Literacy Leaders:

Resources:



Chat about this episode in The Science of Reading Collective.

Explore the Reading Horizons Discovery® Product Suite.

Access past show notes.

Read the transcripts.

Narrator:

Stacy, welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere, brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy Talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights and practical strategies for helping all learners reach reading proficiency. Our hosts are Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor for Reading Horizons. Donell Pons, a recognized expert and advocate in literacy, dyslexia and special education. And Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author and speaker. Now let's talk literacy.

Stacy Hurst:

Hello. Welcome to this episode of Literacy Talks. My name is Stacy Hurst, and I am joined by Donell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny, and this week we are going to talk about, really, we're going to be talking about the research to implementation research to practice gap is what's commonly called, I guess. But what spurred this was a blog post written by Margaret Goldberg. And I know it is on the on a lot of different websites, but I accessed it on the right to read website, and it is a blog from August 7 called doubt crept in questioning my faith and reading research, because really she's highlighting she's a practitioner. So how do we use research in the best ways to to guide our practice? So there's a lot here. When I say research to practice gap, what do the two of you think of what comes to mind?

Lindsay Kemeny:

Well, I think there's a huge gap. And I just think about sometimes we're kind of in our own like our own islands. You have researchers on one side, and we have teachers in the classroom doing, you know, the teaching every day, and there's not a lot of communication between them. And so I think it's a it's a huge problem, but what do we do about it? It's, I don't know. There's a lot we could talk about here.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, Donell, what do you think?

Donell Pons:

Gosh, I agree. And I also often think of those big terms we get, like phonemic awareness. What does that look like in the classroom? What does it look like with this typical classroom? What does look like with someone who may have difficulty in that area? What do I do? What are the things I actually do? Boy, there's a lot of room in there.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah. And I know that this is a topic that is coming up more and more. I feel like that might be because more of us know about the science that goes into reading and reading development, but what I am curious about is, what are some of the things that bring this gap to light in our own experiences, like, I'll give you an example that the author shares. She's talking about, um, just that she was applying some of these things in her classroom, assuming they were backed by research. She actually quoted Julie Washington, if I can find it, who says everything's backed by research, but it but bad research exists, and so how do we like bridge that gap? And I'm thinking about all the balanced literacy practices that I applied in my classroom, trusting that there was research behind them. I knew about the practices before I knew about the research, and once I learned the research, it was a big job to fill in that gap. Like, how do you apply this in the classroom? So all kinds of thoughts about that. Donell, what are you thinking?

Donell Pons:

It does bring to mind. She also mentions an experience at the scientific study of reading conference, and where she has this realization that what they're looking at a lot of things that just don't have a ton of relevance in a classroom. And that's true. I, when I attended, once, I we shared about that experience I had down in Newport. And there are parts of it where you're like, Wow, this is so cool and to be and it was Kilpatrick, David Kilpatrick, who had said, you need to go, if you get a chance go, in many ways, it's like, oh, you can't unsee that where you're looking at why are we asking that question doesn't really have a ton of relevance. And finding about how much there is a distance between the actual what happens in a classroom every day, Monday through Friday, and what somebody finds interesting to research in a research setting, wow,

Stacy Hurst:

yeah, and the setting, that's key, right? Lindsay, oh, I

Lindsay Kemeny:

just want to clarify, because I almost think a little differently of the terms research and science, and Julie Washington had said it was bad science. Right, or that, but, but like, had some it had been scientific, but it wasn't good science. And so I just think about that when you know she's talking about three cueing, and there isn't solid research to support it, but maybe the process of it was science. I don't know. In my head, I'm thinking of those as different things. But, yeah. So research is, like, a lot of research studies are focused on these, like, isolated things, and they're really controlling for all the variables, right? And Margaret's talking about how, but then you go in the classroom, and you can't, you don't have that controlled environment, so, you know? And so sometimes the intervention or whatever doesn't work, and then researchers might point their fingers or blame teachers, saying, Oh, you didn't do it with fidelity, or maybe not the researchers, but whoever administration, anyone but teachers, are like, Well, I didn't have this beautiful, controlled setting that you had. This is real life, and this is like how it works here. And so that's why I got so excited when we listened to Dr Tiffany Hogan at Big Sky, because she was talking about implementation science. And we need, I think, more people trained in Implementation Science who can really, you know, focus on how we apply these things in the classroom.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, and the way that our education system is set up, we don't really, we haven't, historically had that role literacy coaches come close in the realm of literacy, but we still need systemic support too. And I do want to add one clarification. Thank you, Lindsay for pointing this out. I must have said there was bad research. I should have said there were bad research designs. There could be bad science, for sure. I do understand and agree with you on the distinction. One example of that, and I've just been this is the beginning of the semester for me, so I've been telling my students about research studies in the past, but Goodman's cycling, psycholinguistic guessing game that was a poorly designed research study, and it didn't even, I'm guessing, when they reviewed their research studies for the National Reading Panel, it probably wouldn't have even met the qualifications, right? So knowing that, though, who's whose role is it to know that and that implementation person, I think, is that's the key to understand the science well enough to translate it to practice? Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny:

that was my question. Who is trained in implementation? Whose job is it to do this?

Stacy Hurst:

So implementation science started like made its debut, I should say, in around the 2000s so it's not even it's a newer science for one thing, and that's just in general, not necessarily in reading or education. But that's a great point, because our education system was not designed to account for that. I know.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, so this is an interesting point because I'm familiar with Barbara Wilson talking about the science of implementation, and that had a whole different background to it, about understanding the role of people in the environment, what the environment looks like to then understand what it is you're trying to bring to the environment and different elements who will teach, how will you measure? So you're right. There's a real science and some folks who've done some study and some work, and she's got a paper Barbara Wilson, that she put out a little while ago with the help of some others who do research in this area. So initially, when we were chatting about this topic, I was thinking, Oh, is that what we're talking about? But then there is this other thing that we started out today talking about, and that is research to practice. So I think keeping all these terms kind of clear too, because they can get muddied. That's something different that we're talking about here. We're talking about the research that is done in institutions and taking that into schools. Now, how that gets done in schools, that's where you know, the implementation, the science of implementation, can come into play. So I think that's important too, that there are different, shall we say, fields of study, areas of expertise, that need to come together in order for this to happen well, in our institutions. And that, I'm going to add another complicating factor, and that is AI, the introduction of AI. So how can AI help facilitate some of this? How is it already sort of pushing on facilitating some of this? I think that's an interesting thing, too. We're living in this space.

Stacy Hurst:

And, you know, I actually, I'm glad you mentioned Barbara Wilson, because that's where I was first introduced to the concept of implementation science. It was at a conference, and she was presenting about it. What I do remember, and this probably would have been around 2010 11 or 12, somewhere. In there. And what I do remember is that she said going forward, at the time, it was Wilson, I'm not sure fundations existed. I don't know that product well enough, but she said, going forward, we won't allow one teacher to adopt the product. If it's a tier one thing, it has to be supported by the principal in the school. And that was based on her research of implementation science. I also remember at the time being asked to present at a conference about implementation and science, and so I went full blown into what she talked about. I can tell you, it's probably the least effective presentation I've ever given in my career, people were looking at me so blankly, right, like they had never heard the term. Had no idea what it was. I think there was some relationship between, yeah, we know research into practice is hard, but again, I think that implementation science, like you just said, Donell is the missing link. It needs to go in between that need to apply it. So, yeah, what? And I think it goes both ways too, because researchers will, like we've already pointed out research a very specific thing, and it may be three or four steps away from the impact that that would have on student outcomes, right, or even the way that a teacher would present that in the classroom. But I also think we have in this, in this blog post at one point, and I don't remember who it was that said this, you guys help me remember, if you remember, but they said the researchers need to stop researching, because we haven't caught up with them in practice yet. And I when I read that, I remember being shocked like no, because research does happen slowly. It does take some time, just by nature, to get implemented into the classroom. But I have seen things the other way as well, in in practice, for example, I have seen that decodable text is very important for our students. There's not a ton of research that answers the question, how much decodable text for how long and how decodable, right? So there's some research that we could use there, but we know I'm not going to abandon that practice right now, there are some other Are there areas that you guys feel like we are lacking, that research that you see in practice that is effective?

Donell Pons:

I'm going to jump right in and just say, specifically in the area of dyslexia, yes, I think for too long, it's been a blunt instrument. I'm just going to put it that way. So in other words, we're applying large concepts, and oftentimes you'll have students with really unique characteristics, but yet consistent. And you know that there should be more that you can do. I like Stanislaus de Hain for this reason, because he kind of presses on this topic quite a bit and says that we need to understand and and and puts it to dyslexias. He puts a plural behind it. There are many dyslexias. Boy that was, you know, when he first said that, people were like, What is he talking about? Oh, my goodness, how controversial. But I yeah, if you work with folks day in day out, who specifically have challenges in this area, you see these things. And when he says those things, they speak to you, and you say, Yes, tell me more about that. I'd like to hear more about that. So that's an area where I wish we were pushing more, more information would be out there to be shared. Yeah, I

Stacy Hurst:

love that. Lindsay, oh,

Lindsay Kemeny:

I would add. So I agree with your you mentioned the Decodable text. I think phonemic awareness is another one, especially on the implementation of it. And, you know, that's an area that's all, you know, there's a lot of debates and all this, you know, noise going on about it. And so a little more focused on exactly how and and how do you best help someone who is struggling to blend phonemes? And I think I would like to see more research on the use of small groups and practice, because we have this the phonics lesson, and we know there's research with explicit phonics instruction, but what about how much practice students need, and how to best get that practice with feedback in the classroom. Those are just some off the top of my head.

Donell Pons:

Lindsay, I'm just gonna dive into right after you, because I'm like, boy, that list could go on and on, and I saw you struggling to come up with, what would I put at the top on just being asked right now, what would I put to the top of my list? But it's a long list. Long list, and I know that. Thank you very much for trying to whittle that down to a couple for us here, the challenge for me, oftentimes, too, is we get this concept and and some people even might write a little bit on it. So phonemic awareness, that's one we've had more written on than not. But, but even then the practical element of, So, what does that really look like in a classroom? And so we had for years people that were like, well, so then every student, everywhere, all the time, in every classroom, and no and in certain ways. And then how quickly do you tie that to a letter? Do you see how quickly it's just me, just kind of bringing up these little pieces we're getting into a lot of different areas. Lindsay brought up some of the challenges of that. And just me going, Yeah, Lindsay, let me pick up one thread of that, the phonemic awareness piece, and then let's talk about if we did that whole class, and if that every student. And then what grades right away? Wow, it's complicated. It's

Lindsay Kemeny:

complicated. And what about what grade level is the child? Do they know their alphabet, or do they not not know it? And how automatic are they with that knowledge? And if they're not automatic, is that getting in the way of phonemic awareness practice? And then is it more helpful to do some phonemic awareness without the letters, before adding the letters? There's just, there's a lot of nuance here. And sometimes I get frustrated by like, blanket statements from people or that will criticize a teacher. They see a teacher say they do something or they, you know, and instantly kind of on them, like, oh, you should only be doing phonemic awareness with letters. And I'm like, hang on, there might be a situation here that you don't know about. You know,

Stacy Hurst:

I'm also thinking, as I read this blog post about the the mechanism of research, right? I think of it as top down. Research has existed then teachers become aware, and even if it's poorly about poorly designed research studies, right, teachers become aware, and then they implement. What I'd like to see more of is what you just taught. You guys both just highlighted. Let's start with the application. Let's start with classroom or the student, and then inform the researchers. We'd like research on this right teachers. I think action research is an area I'm becoming increasingly interested in, and maybe that's one of the things we do. But what do you guys think about when, when I say that, do we have avenues in place for teachers to say, hey, we'd like research on this, and where does it go?

Donell Pons:

As you're saying, that Stacy, that is fantastic. And yes, I've heard about situations like that. They're typically I've heard about, oh, there's a Stanford School. I you know, you'll meet somebody who was teaching at Stanford, they'll tell you about this fantastic situation where they had a sort of lab school, and say, oh my gosh, that's an amazing scenario. But if this was more typical, rather than atypical, and we had more education programs at universities that a whole portion is to be what is on the ground? What are you doing on the ground, to work with schools in your area, so that you're developing this information that's really expected, rather than an add on or something extra, but it's expected that that'll just be a base part of the program, because you need it. And then I'm going to argue too, Stacy, let's take it a step further as I tried to drop into the conversation, because I know it's not a fun one to pick up, because there's a ton to it. But even now, I'm saying, How about tech companies with AI and they should be getting in this game early. We should learn. Have learned from the past and said, instead of later trying to figure out, oh, how do we all understand AI and its impact on education. We should all be right now working together, so I want to see them at conferences. I would love to see more of that at a conference too, and saying, You know what? This is going to be a big part of education going into the future,

Stacy Hurst:

so being proactive, rather than waiting to be reactive about that. Yeah, that's a great comment. Um, this is also a comment that I pulled from the blog. It is the job of researchers to research. We are not trained in implementation in the school context, that in and of itself we could discuss right translation should be the work of schools of education, curriculum developers, professional development providers, etc. Thoughts.

Donell Pons:

Okay, I'm sorry to jump in here, but I had a quote come to my mind, just as you said that, and it was, never trust a skinny chef. In other words, don't trust a cook who doesn't eat their own food. Sorry, but that's what came to mind, is, you know you have to, don't trust someone who tells you from a distance, in an isolated incident, take this thing and run with it. I want to see them. Take the thing, put it in, sit with it, see what it looks like. Just take it all the way, rather than just to the front door. I don't know Lindsay help me out here. I'm all over the place,

Lindsay Kemeny:

because when I read that quote, I was thinking, well, who is trained in implementation, like who is and all these people they mentioned, okay, yes, schools of education should be deep in research, but they're, you know, and hopefully they're partnering with nearby schools, but they may or may not be you have curriculum developers, um. Um, who, to be honest, might be more interested in making sales. And they're usually like, what does the customer want versus what does research say? And then let's design something according to that, you know. And you know, the same thing with professional development providers, you know? Well, hopefully they are very much taking that research. But again, do they have partnerships with the schools? Oh, and same, I was going to say, with the curriculum developers. Hopefully they are testing, researching what they are putting out into schools before selling it right? There's just, there's so many different so it's just hard because who's whose job is it? And then also, with the research coming out, whose job is it, to disseminate that to teachers. Because let me tell you, teachers do not have time to be seeking out studies and reading studies, we have 1000 other things that we are doing every day, and we have to be preparing what we're going to do tomorrow, right? And that's not even if you have to create your own lesson plan, which sometimes teachers have to do. I mean, it should be, you know, for you, you don't go work at, you know, a coffee shop, and then they say, you have to bring your own coffee beans, right? They provide them. And that's how it should be for schools, too. I saw some little video, like on social media that was, you know, it was, it was really funny, but they were relating teaching to, like, working at a coffee shop. Wait. So I just think, you know, I as a teacher, like, Yes, I like to stay close to research and pay attention to research, but I don't expect that. Of all teachers, some of us are very, you know, I don't know, passionate, obsessed, nerdy, but, but I wouldn't expect all teachers to be doing that. I think there needs to be someone who has more time to do that stuff, to be able to read through it and help teachers implement and share the knowledge with them.

Ad Narrator:

Interested in diving deeper into today's episode and exploring more literacy topics, join us in The Science of Reading Collective, where we host the Literacy Talks podcast chat. It's the perfect place to share insights, ask questions and keep the conversation going. But that's just the beginning. When you join The Science of Reading Collective, you're stepping into a vibrant, dynamic community explicitly designed for literacy champions like you access decodable text soundwall resources and professional learning in our AI enhanced community all brought to you absolutely free. Find us at collective.readinghorizons.com. Join The Science of Reading Collective today and be part of a movement that's eradicating illiteracy. That's collective.readinghorizons.com.

Donell Pons:

you so

Stacy Hurst:

I remember teaching first grade, and as many of you have listened to podcasts, know, I turned to research early in my career, thankfully, the National Reading Panel, but I do remember that I wish I had more time to really dive into this, I what I read, I had to apply on the fly, and a summer is not enough to build the background knowledge you need, because when the minute those students show up, you don't have time for any sort of study, right? I do recall when I became an implementation coach. I was able at that point to spend more time in the research. But then to your point, Lindsay, how do I help my teachers implement that? That like, Who's is this my job? I think it is, but it can't be just on me, right? And I feel like, as you're talking to I was thinking, researchers need to research, and teachers need to teach, but we can't have it's not common to have researchers that are currently teaching a full class all day, all the things, and it's not common having a teacher who can be knee deep in research either. So how do we bridge that gap in a way that's meaningful for our students and our teachers who are required to implement these things.

Donell Pons:

That's that expectation that we were talking about, right? So you're swimming upstream. If that isn't already something the system acknowledges that needs to be changed, right or needs to happen. So that's the other thing. One great light here, you get burned out pretty quickly, or once you're gone, what's left after if you're not there to push it? So that's I think, what I see happening a lot in different schools and buildings and places is you'll have folks who get together, and you might have a great team. But the minute that dynamic changes, there isn't, there isn't anything in place, structurally that has really changed about it in order to see that next year you're going to have just as good or five years from now, trust me, we will, or 10 years and so on. Saying that's a challenge again, is systemic. I think it's a system and an expectation. And I think that this is a season, as I said, with AI, really changing education. We have an opportunity to make some of these system changes they might be forced on us if we don't.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, I think the other thing I wanted to highlight in this blog post was actually a couple of the comments. One was from Stephanie Stoller, who really brought to the conversation the MTSS is that structure, because it allows for the process of implementation and all of its complexities, right? Because it's not one and done. I wish. And then also, Linda diamond had something I thought was really astute and kind of clear about the whole situation. She said, this is a thought provoking piece and a warning, like you're saying, Donnell, to us all, to all of us, knowing what research says and translating it into effective practices requires diligent stamina. We can learn from high performing schools and educators that consistently, consistently keyword there get strong results for marginalized populations. But we also need to understand how learning happens, and that means bringing cognitive science into Educator Preparation and to instructional materials, and it means translational research and mixed methods can be rich sources of learning. We also need to remember that schools are as Dr I never can say his name. Kamanui cautioned complex host environments. And I think, yeah, I'll just pause there anything that stood out to you as I read that?

Donell Pons:

So Stephanie stoller's comment on the MTSS, yeah. I mean, there's a framework, if we're talking about systems. But how many schools are you aware of that don't really have a functioning or even educators today who still, when you say that, will say, so, tell me a little bit more about that. That's that's Wow, right? So again, it would have to be something that a system that we respect and we utilize, right? And if we can't even do MTSS, and a lot of teachers aren't even aware of what it is that tells you the challenge we're up against, right? What we're facing doesn't mean it's impossible, but it's a bit of a challenge.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, and translating the science is something that stood out to me, and I think the three of us went through we had many of conversations as this was happening in real time. But as you recall, when the focus became on phonemic awareness with letters was kind of instigated by Mark Seidenberg stating that very emphatically, which, again, none of us argue with that, right? It's a matter of when, but the timing of that, he's definitely more of a researcher than a practitioner. And I think there were others who helped mitigate, because I felt like teachers got really turned upside down by that. And there were others who helped mitigate by saying, Now, hold on, like you just did. Lindsay, when we were talking you were talking about it. Now hold on. Let's look at when and for whom and and how much, but that's what we risk if we don't, if we don't have the people the role identified, whose job is it to translate? What do you think?

Lindsay Kemeny:

Well, so we need those independent research studies and those isolated like research studies too, right? Of course, we need those, because if you're going to add in the implementation science, you probably first want to look at see if there's was support in this other context right before you're going to implement it. Of course, you know, as Dr Hogan said a couple weeks ago, teachers are the ultimate implementation scientists. That's because, like, we're the ones figuring out how to do it and then doing it in the classroom. We just need more support, I think, doing that. But so, so what is my job as a teacher? Okay, I'm going to make sure I'm as informed as possible. Sometimes I have to cut out the noise, so sometimes I hear people arguing, like, is a phoneme a thing or not? And I'm like, that, look, I know what I need to do in my classroom. I need to, like, tune that out and focus on helping this child blend phonemes. Because, well, you know, that's what they need. So focusing on that, and I can't just abandon. Something I'm doing, because I hear one person say something, but, but I know from my experience, it seems to be helping, okay? And then I've got to look closely at my data. And this is just another reason why we look at data. Yes, we're looking for individual students and what's happening with them, but you're also looking at your own data collectively to see, is there a problem, like with our system? Is there a problem with what I'm doing in my class? Are the majority of students on, you know, average or above average growth? Great. If there's a lot that are below or well below average growth. I need to change something because I'm not implementing something the best that it could be implemented, right? And so I have to watch my data. I have to make the best decisions I can with the knowledge I have. I can't wait for research or I can't wait for this debate to be over and what's going to happen. I have to make the best decision I have with the knowledge I have right then. And so sometimes I get frustrated when we are overly critical of like teachers or what they're doing, because, you know, I think a lot goes into it, okay? So we're watching our data. Okay, so let's see what I say. Make sure you're informed. Make the best decisions you can right? Then we can't wait, watch your data. Respond to the data. You can't just watch the data. If you're not doing anything with the data, there's no point to give the assessment. So you need to respond and change things, right? And then I think also, stay open and stay curious. Don't get too married to something you're doing, because you might find out that maybe there's something that's more effective.

Donell Pons:

So, you know, Lindsay, what I loved about that is, I mean, you're laying out implementation science, right? So there's effective intervention times effective implementation times enabling context, that would mean you have support equals your intended outcomes, and intended outcomes means you know where you're headed, what you'd like to see. So we know that statistically, we can have most of our kiddos reading at a certain level at a certain time, know where you want to go as well. So that's part of it, and this idea that the teacher, it should never have to be alone too. I mean, my heavens, but oftentimes that's when you make a visit, and there's somebody who's reached out and said, Hey, would you come? I'd like to hear you presented. I'd like to see Would you come in and you find out they're very much alone. They're trying to do this, this monumental task, and there is no real system in place, and they're trying to be a single implementer right within their their system, and you should never ask that of a teacher. So I think I would hope there's a couple of things that we know today, perhaps that maybe we didn't know, and today we should know that there's this thing called the science of reading, and with within this thing called the science of reading, we have a lot of really great information because it's been carried out through research, because we made that difference between the science and the research. What does the research tell us about some of these findings? And the research has told us that certain things are very effective at teaching people to learn to read, and they can be really effective for certain populations, and then overall, just very effective. So let's use them in our classrooms. And we have some of these key pieces, critical pieces. The jury's out on a few things. We still need some additional information on a few things, but that doesn't mean that we close our eyes or our minds to some of these things. That means that we continue to look for information that's coming and within play. We look to research or different researchers that are doing some of this. We look for the books that come out. We look for articles that come out. But we're not doing that alone, so I don't want to see teachers having to do that. As you said, Lindsay, who's got time for that. As a teacher, you don't bring your own beans to the coffee shop. Somebody's provided the beans. So at those schools, how are we providing the beans for the teachers? In other words, who's providing that information? So we should have professional development that's given to the teachers, and it's given in in a way in which teachers can use it too. Don't just hand them raw pieces, right? Yet again, what are we really providing for our teachers? That's really good, effective, and

Stacy Hurst:

that collaboration, I think. Let's go back to the coffee shop metaphor. What happens at coffee shops? Right? We hang out and talk. And I'm thinking specifically because I had a colleague encounter, Dr seidenberg's supposition that's not the right word, that phonemes are an illusion, and they might be, they really might be. But the fact is, in our conversation, she was very disturbed by that, but in our conversation, I was able to say, but our alphabet is based on phonemes. It's a phonation alphabet, like we have to acknowledge that in practice, because that's the structure of our print so they may be, on some levels, illusory. But how would you know if we didn't have people to talk to about it, like you're saying, Donnell teachers would just be left on their own to do that? I also when we're talking Lindsay, you mentioned being informed. About the science. A big part of that is you need to know enough. I'm not saying you need to know everything, right? You need to know enough about how the brain learns to read. We need to know enough about that to help us make those in the moment decisions and really,

Lindsay Kemeny:

yeah, sorry, piggyback on that. Because that I'm saying, Yeah, teachers need to be informed. But like we're saying, teachers need support. So in addition to that, our administrators need to be even more informed. Our coaches, our district leaders, need to be even more informed, because in my opinion, they have a little more time that maybe they could devote to that. And then they decide what to disseminate to teachers, and I feel like and how, and then they need to listen to teachers and and support them. I heard someone saying, you know, where there's they were telling me how this other, like this third party company, came to work with their school. And she said I felt like they would come in and do observations, and then they would come and tell us everything we did wrong. And that was it. It was nothing like, what do I do instead? What do I support? And I heard this other story of someone that was part of a huge observation team and felt like they just went in and basically watched a teacher struggle for 30 minutes. So we need to turn those observations around into coaching opportunities.

Stacy Hurst:

Agreed, and I think even in this conversation that we've had that's been very robust, we still, I think the very glaring thing is, in all those people you named, and we could say the administrators, the literacy coaches and teachers right support people, but also people who are providing professional development, whether they're In the school system or not, and curriculum providers, materials, out of all of those who is trained in Implementation Science, who is focusing on that, and I do think if we have the structure in place like the MTSS model is great start, and I learned some things from that too. It takes three to five years to really implement change system wide, right? Who knows that, like, who is saying it's okay that your data is is not growing as much as you think it is. This is going to take time. That's okay. The other thing I want to point out, oh, sorry, go ahead, dono and

Donell Pons:

Stacy, the really important thing you just said, right there, is legislators are more involved in this process than ever before. Because, you know, thankfully, we have some, we've gotten some momentum there, and they're a lot of this is the science of reading based, and they're making determinations and saying that things need to look different in different states. But that thing about three to five years, make sure you understand, as a legislator, this is in for the long haul as well, because it'll need sustained support, right?

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, kind of related to this, like that. I think as educators, most of us feel a certain way when we hear the word fidelity. And I think part of the reason that I always question, I always ask the question, what is fidelity? Is to what and how is it researched and in what scenario, but I am doing, I'm being I'm using fidelity with my students, with what I have learned works that's aligned with the science. So I don't ever want to replace that teacher knowledge. I appreciated Lindsay that you said, stay curious, and I know teachers don't have a ton of time. You have a lot of subjects to cover, and a lot of things to prepare for. But any chance you get to learn more, right? Even if it's just a podcast or a blog post, there's a lot thought provoking information out there. One piece of research that I think is encouraging is 95% of students can learn to read, barring intellectual hiccups. You can call them by the end of first grade. And I feel like sometimes we feel bad if our students aren't at that 95% point. But this is where implementation science can 100% come in and say it's going to take time to get there. You can't do that in one day or one year. So lots of things and

Donell Pons:

Stacey, I've really appreciated being able to have this conversation because it's so important. And if our little conversation here hasn't illustrated just how difficult and how multifaceted This is, then it needs continued conversation centered around it as well, but also when you were talking about that 95% and then there's also that percentage where a lot of students that I work with fall, had we done better, because we knew better, would be in a much better place today. So that's the other thing, is we don't have time. Time to waste, and those early years are so valuable. You can do a lot of really good work in those early years to help those students who will will have a difficult time coming to reading. But that early work is so valuable, it's why this conversation is so important. Thank

Stacy Hurst:

you. Yeah. Lindsay, any closing remarks? No, I

Lindsay Kemeny:

just feel like I've been really ornery for this. I have some strong feelings on this topic in general. I'm just like, but I would just love to see more of a bridge between the research to practice, and I think implementation is the key. And I just, you know, I don't know what the answer is, I can only do what I can control. But it's when I hear about people talking about implementation science, it makes me get really excited, because I think there is a lot of power there.

Stacy Hurst:

I agree, and I think it's an exciting time in education, because people are becoming aware enough to ask these questions, and there's a lot of room for growth here, I have been asking this question. I've had conversations with my friends who teach at other universities, how do we open that highway between the classroom and what's being researched, and how do we go through that implementation piece in a way that benefits everyone. And I think we're going to see some really cool things in the future, but I feel like it's going to be hard work too, but the we can just do the best we can do in the meantime. So I really think everybody who's joined us for this episode, no matter what your role in literacy is, hopefully it spurred some thoughts about how you can support implementation or maybe learn a little bit more about it. I know I'm going to be learning more about implementation science in general, but also how it relates to literacy. So thank you all for joining us. Thank you Donnell and Lindsay for the conversation, I think we end every episode by saying we could go on and on about this. So thank you. So for those of you who joined us this week, we hope you'll join us next week for another episode of Literacy Talks.

Narrator:

Thanks for joining us today. Literacy Talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where reading momentum begins. Visit readinghorizons.com/literacytalks to access episodes and resources to support your journey in the science of reading.

Unknown:

You.