Literacy Talks

Exploring Frustrations with Constructive Discussions

• Reading Horizons • Season 6 • Episode 10

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In this thoughtful episode of Literacy Talks, our hosts engage in a reflective discussion on insights and perspectives in the field of literacy education. The conversation explores the nuances and complexities involved in implementing evidence-based practices, honoring teacher expertise, and navigating the ever-evolving landscape of literacy instruction. 

Through constructive dialogue, the hosts share their professional ponderings, allowing listeners to consider alternative viewpoints and appreciate the care and dedication that goes into this vital work. Join a meaningful exploration of the literacy landscape, guided by seasoned educators committed to continuous growth and improvement.

SHOW NOTES
Literacy Leaders:

Resources:

Terms:

  • virgule: a slash (/), often used to show pronunciation. For example the letters -igh spell the sound /ī/.
  • Dunning–Kruger effect: a cognitive bias in which people wrongly overestimate their knowledge or ability in a specific area. This tends to occur because a lack of self-awareness prevents them from accurately assessing their own skills. (Psychology Today)



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Narrator:

Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere, brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy Talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights and practical strategies for helping all learners reach reading proficiency. Our hosts are Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor for Reading Horizons. Donell Pons, a recognized expert and advocate in literacy, dyslexia and special education, and Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author and speaker. Now let's talk literacy.

Stacy Hurst:

Welcome to this episode of literacy talks. I'm Stacy Hurst, and I'm joined by Donell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny, where every week, we talk about something related to literacy, and we do take turns choosing the topic. This week, it was Lindsay, and I'm looking forward to this conversation for a lot of reasons, but Lindsay, I'll let you go ahead and introduce it for us.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Thank you. Yeah, I've done a couple episodes similar to this before, but I think it's always a fun topic, and you never know what we're gonna say, so that's always exciting. And so today, I just want to talk about things that annoy you. I thought you know, anything in this, you know, our field of literacy, anything you see, um, you know, in your work or online, you know, it's Anything's fair game here, but something that maybe you want to bring up, and then we'll just kind of get our reactions and whether we agree, or whether we think That's not a big deal, or what. So I think we'll just kind of take turns. I kind of, I let Stacy and Donell know to think about a few things, and we can just kind of take turns sharing. So Stacy, why don't you share your first annoyance?

Stacy Hurst:

Okay, well, besides the fact that if you're watching this on YouTube, my little puppy is in the background, just having the time of his life. There, um, mildly annoying. We're okay. He's cute. No, I think this came up just last week, and it is something that, because you'd already given us the topic Lindsay, I let probably move from a minor annoyance to a little bit more major. But it is. It all started with a tick tock that I saw about a teacher complaining about the pendulum swings. And I am so adamant This is not a pendulum swing. It is a course correction. That's what we're going through. And so when teachers, who've been around a while, and I would be one of them right, say, Oh yeah, things will change. It's true. Things change, but we evolve, and we were off track for so long that this is a major course correction. So that's one of my minor, maybe major irritations this week.

Donell Pons:

Okay, I was laughing because there goes one of mine. I was

Stacy Hurst:

thinking my I'm so sorry, yeah,

Donell Pons:

but I'm just gonna add my two cents worth. That one comes up for me too. It's still something that just gets me this whole pendulum talk. My thing is it's a pendulum swing. When you run from, we don't really know to, we don't really know. To, we don't really know you don't pendulum swing from we have science, we're grounded in science, to racing back into, where were we again? You don't so that, to me, is like there's no pendulum swing because we're grounded in science. Finally, and it's readily available. That's another key piece for this time right now, is we're living in the information age. I had to go out and search for a lot of this stuff to go to a library, right? Remember those dinosaur days? And we went to the library, got a book off the shelf and looked it up. We're not there. We have this readily available to us. Sometimes it's behind a pay wall, yeah, so you have to get resources, but it's available. And so and I agree, Oh,

Stacy Hurst:

I'm so with you. I'm glad you said that too, because adding frustration to that for me as an educator is the way they use the science, the term the science of reading. Oh, we know the science of reading is the current thing. It actually has been around a long time. It is not new. And as a teacher, I guess I could add that maybe isn't. I'm gonna just attach it to this annoyance. But I remember being so annoyed when I learned that this research has had been there all along. To your point, Donell, I just didn't know it. I didn't have access. So yeah, see what you started. Lindsay, already. Yeah, this

Lindsay Kemeny:

is good. Here's some thoughts. This is why I think it can be easy to think of it as a pendulum swing. Maybe because I think we have a tendency to overcorrect and so especially when you have people who maybe don't have, like, a. A deep enough knowledge about what we're talking about with the science of reading, and maybe not even that. But sometimes there's like, little sound bites or certain things that kind of get pushed out there. And then people think like it means you go all the way there and don't do some other things. And then people start to say, Well, no, we're over correcting, maybe. And you need to come back over here, you know, where I think, like, I think we do have a tendency to swing too far one way or the other. So, like, for example, with decodable text, we know decodable texts are so important, and I think a lot of us understand that it is a scaffold, you know? Well, I mean, it's a it's a great way to practice, but you you move away from that when the child is ready, right? But I think we have some that are over correcting, and now they're like in fourth grade, and their their admin is telling them, oh, they have to use decodables. And so then when they hear someone say, Well, no, you know that some students might not need decodables, not all. They might see it as this back and forth thing, I just kind of wonder about that. It's the same. I feel like what's happening right now with background knowledge that is so important and an area that we really neglected. But it doesn't mean that now we only work on background knowledge and we neglect strategies, but it's comprehension strategies in the service of learning, you know, knowledge, and so I think there's so many nuances, and I wonder if that can contribute to people thinking this is a pendulum swing. Any thoughts on that? So,

Donell Pons:

Lindsay, I like this topic, and I'm glad you attached it immediately to this, because I'd rather that we get the definition and an understanding. Because overcorrection is something we should always be concerned about. Always be concerned about is overcorrection, because I think that can happen a lot of times with various things we're doing. How about you? Stacy,

Stacy Hurst:

well, yeah, and I agree with that. And having been a teacher who like, I know I felt, I felt when older teachers would say, more experienced I should say, teachers would say to me, Oh, this is the pendulum swing. I actually, very early on could understand why they say that? Because we're at the mercy of people making decisions for us, and I think that's at the heart of that comment. What frustrates me about it is that people close their mind when they dismiss it like that, and we should always be learning and growing and even like what you said about background knowledge, Lindsay, that's really critical that they know the difference between background knowledge and comprehension strategies, right? And a phrase we've used often on this podcast is, let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. So I think there's so many complex things going into why people say that, and I definitely understand the feeling of it, but if you find those words coming out of your mouth and you're listening to our podcast, maybe just pause and consider, what about this pendulum swing is different because it's, I don't think it's that. It's a course correction, yeah, I would love for people to set share that message more often, and

Lindsay Kemeny:

just that term, science of reading. I mean, we are talking about the science and we're talking about research, and so I get really concerned when people attach that term to certain programs. And honestly, you know, certain programs saying, like, this is the science of reading, because what happens when that program doesn't work? Then everyone's thinking, Oh, the science of reading doesn't work. So goodbye, we're going back, you know? And so it really concerns me. And it's like you said, Stacy, I love how you're saying, This is not a pendulum swing. This is a course correction. And you know, we always need to be aligning as close as we can with the evidence base. And when things aren't working, we've got to figure out why there isn't a perfect program out there. And so, you know, we've talked about before, there's kind of this problem with the term science of reading, because it's starting to mean different things for different people. And so it is really concerning, because you don't want it to turn into someone thinking that this is just another fad or pendulum swing. Okay, Donell, what's your first one to share? Your one was taken. But what's your what's your

Donell Pons:

next thing on? Because I couldn't take that one. You guys were kind of touching on it, though it's one that I scribbled down very quickly when I thought of it. It's this crowding into the marketplace of curriculum and materials all labeled science of reading. That's a big problem. I think it's only going to get bigger. And I love what you said, Lindsay. It's one of the many concerns that I have is if you have this thing that you purchased because it would stamp science of reading, you don't really understand. What's in it, why you're purchasing it, is it a good fit for our setting, having all that stuff that you need behind you in order to choose or select the things that you're going to use and to use them correctly, all of that is so important. I mean, I say that like it's nothing, but it's everything. That's the everything. And then when you don't see results, because a lot of that wasn't in place. You didn't really understand what you were selecting. You didn't have a background to be able to do it with any fidelity. And then in the end, you don't get results. After a year's work, and you say, oh, science of reading stuff, what are we doing? I'm afraid of that. I'm hearing more and more of that within that conversation. It's time frames for change that also concern me. This isn't like we're deciding a spring to summer wardrobe. I mean, we're turning things around on literacy. That's huge, and it's a major commitment, and it takes a lot of time. It's going to take more than a season. It'll take more than one year's worth of somebody's efforts. This is year upon year consecutive, building effort, people getting what they need, not only materials training, to really implement with fidelity, and we're talking five more, five or more years, not an unheard of to really make those changes. Yes, we should be seeing positives along the way, but to really get to where we want to be, and I just hope we have, we have the ability to hang in there with it, is concerning to me. This is one of those things pet peeve.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Yeah, there's a lot there, and it's just something I'm thinking about with that. Because, you know, all these things are calling themselves, the science of reading, and some of them are closely aligned. Some might not be, but if it's not working, I mean, you've got to be watching your data. And if it's not working. I mean, there's so many different reasons why it could not be working. So before we just abandon a program, especially if, if you've, you know, looked at it, you've looked at the, you know, the curriculum guidelines from the reading league or something, and it has a lot of those and yet you're not having good results with it, then we really got to dig deeper. I really think, to see, are you allotting enough time for that program? Maybe you are, but there's a big difference in the amount of time you have scheduled to do a lesson and the actual academic learning time that's happening during the lesson. So, you know, how are your students on task? Of this teacher, keeping a quick pace? Are the students engaged? Are there response opportunities? They're all, there's all this, you know, there's whole other side of the kind of the art of teaching to help make sure the academic learning time is there, right? And, I mean, I could go on, but there's just so many reasons why it might not be working. Okay, um, we'll go on. To my annoyance. I don't know. I still don't know which one I'm going to talk about first. Okay, I'll do this one, and you guys can tell me if I'm overreacting or not, because I shared this one on Twitter. And really, some someone was like, it's not a big deal. Kids can learn the difference. Okay, so this is what I'm annoyed about. I'm annoyed when there are student facing materials with really large like boldly. I don't know how to state this, they have the phonemes represented really big and bold. And when I'm saying the phonemes, I mean, they have those virgules, right? Stacy taught me that word, which is the slashes, and then the letters in between the slashes, which represents a sound. It's not the spelling, it's the sound, okay? And so I get annoyed when those are really big, like, that's the emphasis, because I think the visual emphasis for students should be the spelling and what especially. And so someone on Twitter was like, well, they can learn the difference and no problem. And I'm like, okay, maybe, maybe some of them can. My default always goes to the ones who struggle. And I feel like there's another piece of information they've got to figure out is, what's the deal with those slashes? Um, and, and so I'm okay, like we have sound spelling walls. I'm okay if it's on there. I just prefer it to be, you know, maybe smaller, and because I want the emphasis when they look at the sound spelling wall to be the spelling, not the phoneme, right? And what really irks me is, in some materials, they have, like they have for long a it's an AE, and they have an AE between the slashes. And that really upsets me because as that is not a spelling for a and students are seeing that over and over. Then they start spelling long, A, A, E, and I'm like, no. So that is my annoyance. What are your reactions on that?

Stacy Hurst:

I can see why you're annoyed by that. I appreciate your annoyance, because I think that's an important distinction to make. I really do, and I can honestly say, of the sound spelling walls that come to my mind, I don't know what the emphasis is. I didn't notice that, but I think for our learners, that is important. I think that's a good thing. I'm going to start paying more attention to and I definitely the AE spelling is annoying for all the reasons you said. So that's 100% annoyance.

Donell Pons:

I'm gonna add in that. Yeah, I'm annoyed too. And you know what? This brings me back to Lindsay. This particular thing that we're talking about here sound walls is, is a conversation I was able to have with someone at the Big Sky reading conference, and it was someone who had done a fair amount of work with Linnea Ehri, and she made some comments, and had some comments about sound walls. And what was nice is because you're not so attached to an idea about how something should be done. You're open to when someone says, Hey, remember what this science or research that we do have actually says what that might look like in a classroom, you're able to have some really good constructive conversations. And I felt like I was able to have a really good constructive conversation because of that. And it was also the fact that I was able to see the importance of reevaluating what exactly did the research say. But when someone says back to you and says, that's no big deal. I want them to say, Well, tell me where it's no big deal. Find for me where it's no big deal, right? So again, these are things that I think we do need to take into importance and say, yeah, hey, that's a really good point. Lindsay brings up a really good point about that. If I feel like it's no big deal, what backs me up, what supports me in thinking it's no big deal. Otherwise, it should be a pretty big deal, because that's where we're doing this, over correction and saying sounds are great, then why don't we go all the way and say, Hey, I'm going to focus in on how a sound is spelled, or the spelling that might represent a sound, rather than the spelling within a word. That's important. Those are important things.

Lindsay Kemeny:

And I get that you're like, well, then how do you organize your sound spelling wall? Well, I get you are organizing by phoneme, and I get that you're going to have those on there, but in my mind, that's more for the teacher and because, well, especially if you have, like, mouth pictures, because my students can look at the mouth pictures to see what matches and and they went, once they see the spellings on there, they they they're gonna know the sound, so I don't and, you know, there are sound spelling walls out there where it's, it's, you know, small and not like the emphasis. And then I feel like more and more that I'm seeing, like the phoneme, the phoneme representation, is getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bolder. And I'm like, Okay, I think we need to be, you know, focusing more on the spelling than on, you know, the that representation of the phoneme, because that's for teachers. So that's my you know what? It feels good just to talk about it, I feel better already. Okay, all right, Stacy, we're on to your next one. Oh,

Stacy Hurst:

goodness, okay. Oh yeah. Now I'm I get what you're saying, Lindsay, like, What's annoying? Which one do I choose? Yeah, okay, I will say this one, and I'm probably gonna make some people mad. I don't know, but I get really annoyed when people without experience or knowledge make decisions for teachers and what we should be doing in the classroom. And that starts with again, I hope I don't like cause too many issues. It starts starts with school board members, right? And it goes down like legislative people, too, and then also people who provide PD for teachers who don't have a background in teaching or knowledge and knowledge of what goes into reading. I think there are lots of scenarios where this happens. There's a principal I know of who has zero teaching experience. He was in business, and he's making a lot of decisions not based on experience. So I don't know, what do you guys think? What scenarios do you think of that fit into that annoyance?

Lindsay Kemeny:

Well, this fits in right with one of my annoyances, which you know, and how I was framing it was, what is when teachers are not valued. And I think this kind of fits into it Stacy, because sometimes you have, you know, people that tell you something without like you said, they might not have the experience or the knowledge, and they're not listening to your professional opinion, information, whatever it is, you know, like you're saying, Hey, I'm seeing this. And this is a part. Problem, and they just comment and say, well, that doesn't matter. This is what you have to do, or you have to do this program. Doesn't matter that you see it's not working, and you see all these problems with it. You have to do it, you know. Or you know, whatever it is, to me, it kind of comes back to like, is my opinion, not valued. And I see that on so many levels, you know, you can see that on the school level. You can see it on the district level, definitely with definitely with the public. Anytime there is some kind of news story on education, I've learned do not click see comments below, because, I mean, the worst comes out in people, and they're saying all these things, and you're like, Oh my gosh. Like everyone thinks they know about teaching because they went to school, like, I've gone to a doctor my whole life. It doesn't mean I think I know you know about the medical profession more than they do. So to me, that's what comes up, Stacy, when you bring that

Donell Pons:

up, okay, I like this topic and and you've both given me a lot to think about. One thing I was thinking about when you were talking is, I think this might be something maybe with social media. What's going on too? Because for a first I when I went to a doctor's appointment, my doctor was astounded that, and I could tell she was like, hurt a little bit a little bit offended that people were really questioning her judgment. I think that was the first time she'd really felt a lot of that for a while, and it's been over, you know, we can talk about various things, reasons as to why, but she was really expressing this kind of hurt, you know, like, can you believe and and that kind of thing. And I thought, yeah, I can, because that's what happens to teachers all the time. You know, you get invalidated a lot for whatever reason. And I think part of it, like you said, Lindsay, might be because everybody went to school. So, hey, I've been to school so and also, when you also say you're a parent and you're raising children, nobody hands you a manual, you have to figure a lot of things out. And so you figure, well, I'm figuring these things out. I'm figured out these things. Teaching is pretty interesting because it's a crossroads of, yeah, a lot of people do it, and you're asked to do teaching in many different ways, right? But then there's also this, this specific area where we think there's some training that goes into it, and some research and some some evidence of how that stuff works well, and we expect people to know that, and that's called a teacher who's trained. And I think that's a really interesting juncture. It's just how much respect do we give to that and to what teachers do as a job? It's interesting.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Yeah, the three of us were actually in a conversation one time when someone had stated, you know, that they had a five year old, so they knew exactly what we were talking about, kind of, and we're kind of like, not really. And because even though it's like, yes, that's so great, you have an experience of maybe working with a budding reader, or whatever it's it's still not the same. You know that experience with that those you know, your child and your child is very different than you know, those of us who are seeing many different, many different students with different profiles, you know. And sometimes, I think that is the problem that's sometimes some people speak from their ex, like experience as a parent with their kids so, you know, and we all do that to some extent. Obviously, I do that with a son with dyslexia, but if I had had not had him, I would have been speaking to my experience with my other three children, and like, oh, that's no big deal. Kids pick up on that, versus then I had one and realized, oh my gosh, I'm doing all the same things, and it's very different. And so I hear that sometimes, gosh, there was even just something I was listening to not long ago, and I was thinking, huh, that is probably why they have that theory, like whatever with balanced literacy, or whatever it could be. But you know that the person was saying, Well, you know, this is how I taught my children, and they just figure it could I just did this, or like, I just read to them, and they figured out the code. So that's all you need to do, but that you only know the experience with that child or your children. It's very different than everyone else.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, I think this profession is more amenable to the Dunning Kruger effect than probably any others, right? Just because of that, so many people have gone to school, so many people have taught something, right, and so they feel like, oh, I you know, I can teach, especially when it comes to reading, knowing what needs to happen in the brain to read, knowing what informs that there's so much there that even if you've taught your own child to read that you wouldn't, you know have access to that information. And I think along with that goes the we're talking about teachers, not voices, not being heard. I think experience and knowledge. But I get frustrated every year when the LED. Legislative session comes around, and I was only able, in my 15 year career in public schools to go on to Capitol Hill twice, and that was at no small cost, like I had to give up a day of work, and I had to arrange for a sub, and I lived three and a half hours away, so I had to make sure I could go there. And even then, it wasn't like I was speaking to everyone, right, like I met with people as a group. I just I question, yeah, where can teachers voices be heard? Were they're really not elevated or leaned into

Lindsay Kemeny:

Yeah, we need to elevate the voice. And you said something there, Stacy, where you're saying the knowledge and experience, it's like book smarts and street smarts. And there we need to respect both. I mean, there's definitely people that are not in the classroom or not practicing, that are very, very smart and intelligent, and we need to take what they're saying, you know, listen to what they're saying. And there's definitely people who are who they have the street smarts. They're implementing it every day. I mean, this is the teachers, right? But hopefully the teachers also have the, you know, it's best if you're going to have both book smarts and street smarts, but we need to be listening to both. And we need to give more value to both. Definitely, we need to elevate the teacher voice. And I mean across everything, not just, you know, not just at your schools, but you know, also just in this whole our science of reading community.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, an example I use frequently, you can read anything you want to about a bicycle. You can know how to describe every tiny, minuscule part on a bicycle. You can know how they're manufactured. You can know the history of bicycles. But if you've never ridden one, why are you influencing the people who are and I think sometimes we get into that route with teaching reading specifically as well.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Okay, Donnell, what? So I think we're to your second one,

Donell Pons:

my second or third. I feel like I have, I've already done five. Okay, this one, I don't know how you guys might feel about it, but it is one that came to mind almost right away. And I think what it fits under, first, it was very specific, and then I think it fits under more of a broad topic, and that is just in general. We've talked around science of reading and what that might mean to people and the definition. And you know, if you've listened to the podcast at all, you're very familiar. But my concern is that when as should be a natural progression, we have more information available to us that that, are we moving forward with that information and utilizing it like we should? Or are we staying kind of stuck and with those things because we don't want people to accuse us of? Oh, dear, you know now you're saying this or that, even though it's all part of the full body of what we're learning, we should be continuing to learn. So in other words, conversations about set for variability, conversations about cognitive load theory and how they impact reading all of these things, we should be having more of these as we get more information. Likewise, we have different innovations that become available to us to help us in this reading space. I have the tests of dyslexia. Dr Nancy Mather, a huge part of that was part of the Woodcock Johnson. She has a fantastic history behind her. This test of dyslexia, fantastic thing that's come to light that she's put together to help folks that, okay, we're going to screen out. Yep, it's looking like dyslexia. What's my next step with that? It can even inform assessment. Yet, I don't see people even talking about it. This is fantastic to have something, a resource like this, that's already validated, that's handed to us. So I'm afraid we're not continuing to move forward with what's becoming available to us as we continue to learn more. That's a concern. Okay,

Lindsay Kemeny:

so I'm interpreting that as we need to be more open and not get too set in our ways,

Donell Pons:

right? Lindsay and Andrea and continue to move forward with what we learned, right? Because it's going to continue to move so we've learned this thing we call our base maybe, and we feel comfortable with our base or foundation, but realize it's always being contributed to by research that's being gathered, right?

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, as you were talking, I was interpreting it my own way, which called that back to memory. Anytime we had a professional development session, I'm including things like letters as well, and then we don't have the resources to implement it, and time is an important resource. So you mentioned this already, Donell, like they unreasonable timelines that are are imposed, oftentimes on teaching and learning, frankly, when they shouldn't be, but when I'm thinking about, Okay, so we've just had this fantastic. Stick. PD, and school starts tomorrow. So when do I have the time to really understand this for myself, get the materials ready, figure how I'm going to use it in my classroom, and then have the time and support as I implement it. And then, to your point, Donell, improving. You know, year one, year two, year three, year four. Or is this just something that it's here you go. We've introduced it to you. You're on your own.

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Lindsay Kemeny:

Okay, to me. Back to me. So I am annoyed when we teach high frequency words to students before they can decode and before they know the alphabet. That is a big annoyance to me. I don't know why the rush. I think you know, beginning kindergarten, you don't need to be you know, you can wait a couple months before you introduce high frequency words. It just to me, it's setting them up for just getting the wrong idea of what reading is, because, like, oh, they only know five letters. But now you're going to teach them a word that they can't connect, you know, any letters or sounds to, and so now you're just teaching them to, you know, look at it as a whole and memorize it. And that bothers me. So I just think we don't need to rush and we don't need, you know, 100 high frequency words in kindergarten, like, let's slow down and let's focus on having them get their letter names and sounds at the beginning of the year and learning how to blend into those little CBC words. And let's be working on that before we think of adding in high frequency words. It's definitely

Stacy Hurst:

competing for cognitive space when you do that right like I just think of some districts that say, Oh, your students need to know 100 high frequency words by the end of the year in kindergarten. That's way too many. But also you just you said it Lindsay, like students will get the wrong idea of what goes into reading, but they need more exposures, by the way, to memorize words as a whole than they would if you taught the sound symbol correspondence, but you're also confusing the brain. You're not building the pathways in the brain that need to be built. So I think that's a fair annoyance, and I do feel like you could introduce some of them very early on, right? Just as you teach the letters of the alphabet and the sounds that they spell like if you're really hankering to do that,

Donell Pons:

this made me think of that complaint you often might hear where somebody in a school says, geez, every parent thinks their kid has dyslexia. Well, if you want a lot of kids to look like they might have dyslexia, try forcing them to pick up 100 of those words right in kindergarten, that load we're talking about when you ask really huge things of students that are developmentally inappropriate, then you're going to see some things that you might say, oh dear goodness. What's going on in this classroom? So we need to be thinking, it's an excellent one. Thank you, Lindsey.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Are we? Do we want to share one more? Are we good there?

Donell Pons:

We've done enough snark yet.

Stacy Hurst:

I know. How do we like Well, I do have one more that is just really annoying me even more.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Is there anything burning right now that you really need to get out? Kind of

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, I feel better. And we can, we can talk about it or not, but I'm so annoyed that teachers largely are responsible for their own professional progress. Like, if you want to get an advanced degree, you have to pay for it. If you want certain professional development comes at a cost. I don't love that that I'm annoyed

Donell Pons:

and that there isn't some formal way of supporting teachers in continuing to stay abreast of this information like I was talking about, right? You do in other professions where you expect a high level of professionalism, which we do for our teachers, we really do. So I agree with you. That's one that sticks out there for me, too.

Lindsay Kemeny:

So we need to build it in. Somehow, because, like, we were saying, you know, in a recent episode, just how teachers don't have time, you know, we don't have time for anything, but if we're building something in or maybe building in time for those professional learning communities where we have time to, like, dig into a topic and figure out how to implement it. Yeah, that would be wonderful. And I like, what you're staying saying, Stacy, like, I would have loved for, you know, to have help paying for my master's program or, you know, whatever. And I've written a lot of grants for PD training. And I'm actually, like, really, I love that my school district provides a grant every year for professional development that you get to choose a conference, right? You know? But, yeah, I would love more of that. And I would love, you know, all teachers, to have that chance, just because, you know, we, we will go to conferences. And, you know, it's always sad to me that there's not very many teachers at the conferences, and I wish we would pay for them more to go,

Stacy Hurst:

yeah, and that's one reason I do love about our podcast. We always do a summary episode. It's not nearly enough, but I do feel a personal responsibility, because I've been lucky. I've had many opportunities to attend many conferences, and I don't take that lightly. I feel like there's always things we can share.

Donell Pons:

And you know, just to add a positive note to this conversation, which I think you know, all of these things are really important to talk about, because they're relevant, and I'm certain we're not the only ones thinking about them, that's for sure. I'm sure there have been listeners and listeners, and I'm sure somebody's probably speaking right now, as we're saying, this podcast, they're talking a lot, but you missed this one because there's plenty. But I wanted to just end with I had an opportunity. Recently. I was in a group, and people were doing introductions, or people unfamiliar with each other, and someone asked me, what I do, what do you do? And so when I explained what I what I do, immediately, lots. It was very interesting. It was almost, I don't know how, what, what would be a similar profession, somebody might say where others are interested. But right away, many people turn to be a part of the conversation, and they were very interested. And and that, to me, said a couple of things. One, it said perhaps some of these folks have had people in their lives that they love, or even themselves who have struggled with reading and they really wanted to know more. So it drew their attention. That might be one way of looking at it. Another way I was thinking is maybe we're getting somewhere with people caring more about how we learn to read. That would be great. I'd love to think that too. But upon leaving when my husband I were talking and my husband said, you know, there are very few times when somebody says what they do that interests me nearly as much, and clearly it's because he has dyslexia. I'm sure that's a part of it, but he said it doesn't interest me nearly as much as what you and your associates do, meaning other teachers, tutors, those who help folks learn to read. He said there simply isn't anything anybody else does that is nearly as important. I've never just I've never met anyone that does anything as important. And it's true

Stacy Hurst:

yet, sorry, I'm gonna, just gonna flip it right back to the nation. Look at me, go and I'm gonna get in some real trouble if this gets to the nation. But it won't, I trust. I'm just so annoyed every time I hear of a professional athlete's new contract, millions, billions of dollars. And it's not that they don't work hard. I And I love sports. I do. I'm not anti but compared to a teacher contract, yeah, and you like you said, Donnell, it's the most important thing, sports are entertainment, and for some people their life, but for society, they play an important role, but not as important as reading. Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny:

comes back again to valuing our teachers and not just saying it, but following through with actions. And you know, how are we valuing teachers?

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, positive. Yeah. Donell, I had a student just today after class, and we're just a few weeks into the semester, come up to me and say, I'm really interested in being a literacy coach and a reading specialist. And I said, Oh, she's like, fresh friend. I'm like, what interests you? Well, I love this class, and I love all the things that we've learned so far. It's made reading makes so much sense. I love reading, and I've always felt it's really important for people to know and so there are lots of reasons to be hopeful and and I do. I see that every day with my students, so in higher ed, of course, but, um, yeah, if we could just get these systemic things fixed,

Lindsay Kemeny:

yes, but it's good, and I think it's good to have these conversations every once in a while when we're bringing up these things we're annoyed about, or, you know, pet peeves, like we talked about in one episode. Um. I still have like, three more on my list, so, you know, we'll we'll talk, maybe we'll do a part two. We'll see um, but things, hopefully this, you know, was helpful also to some of you out there listening. Hope you enjoyed this, but thank you guys. I enjoyed this conversation. It's fun to it's always fun to hear these types. And

Stacy Hurst:

when you told us what it was going to be, my thought was, oh, good, wait, Haven't we already had to, it's okay. We could do

Lindsay Kemeny:

you can tell I have things to get off my chest. Sometimes, I guess I'm the one that keeps being like, Let's do you know, but it's okay. What are you annoyed about?

Stacy Hurst:

But do you know what this happened after our last one? I have a very distinct memory of it. It also helps me identify and really appreciate people who are not demonstrating the thing we said, right? Like I talked about the principal who didn't have any experience teaching. There are other administrators I know that absolutely elevate the voices of their teachers, and they really have input so and, and that's not to say, you know, there are other school board members and even legislature legislators who do have an understanding. Yeah. So, so is that enough to turn this into a cheery, happy, look for the good

Lindsay Kemeny:

negative. I don't think no either,

Stacy Hurst:

but I would you say annoying,

Lindsay Kemeny:

the vocabulary really a depressing episode, but I think we're all right, yeah,

Stacy Hurst:

I just need to keep it in annoying, you know, just annoying, not really, like angry about things that's on me. Okay. Well, I do appreciate this conversation. And Lindsay, I do think it's been helpful, because I, like Donnell, you said there are probably other people for everyone. We mentioned other people either having something to add to what we said, or thinking, Oh, I'm really annoyed with this this week, so thank you for joining us in that conversation, and I hope that you join us for the next episode, whether it's about annoying things or not. of Literacy Talks,

Narrator:

Thanks for joining us today. Literacy Talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where reading momentum begins. Visit readinghorizons.com/literacytalks to access episodes and resources to support your journey in the science of reading.