Literacy Talks

Handwriting, Spelling, and Student Voice: A Writing Deep Dive

• Reading Horizons

Share episode

Writing is anything but simple. In this episode, the hosts break down the foundational elements of writing instruction—from the mechanics of handwriting and spelling to the role of oral language and student motivation. They share insights, personal stories, and practical strategies for supporting students at every stage, with a special focus on transcription, composition, and the power of student voice. It's a thoughtful, down-to-earth conversation about what it really takes to help students grow as writers.


Do you teach Structured Literacy in a K–3 setting?
Sign up for a free license of Reading Horizons Discovery® LIVE and start teaching right away—no setup, no hassle. Sign-up Now at readinghorizons.com/free

Coming Soon: Reading Horizons Ascend™
From Pre-K readiness to advanced fluency, Ascend™ offers a consistent, needs-based reading experience across every grade, tier, and model—so every student can build mastery, one skill at a time. Learn More at readinghorizons.com/ascend

Narrator:

Welcome to literacy talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere, brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights and practical strategies for helping all learners reach reading proficiency. Our hosts are Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor for Reading Horizons. Donell Pons, a recognized expert and advocate in literacy, dyslexia and special education, and Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author and speaker. Now let's talk literacy.

Stacy Hurst:

Welcome to this episode of literacy Talks. My name is Stacy Hurst. I'm joined by Donell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny, and today we are talking about something that is important to everyone, writing. And we are going to let our resident expert on writing, aka Donell, lead the discussion for us. So Donell turn the time over to you with that intro,

Donell Pons:

oh dear. Oh dear. With that intro, I was just thinking to myself, remember the good old days when a podcast you couldn't view it. Those were good days. There's no video. I love those days. I do too. Okay, so yes, writing. And we talked about writing quite a bit on the podcast, and what we're going to be doing today is this is kind of framing us up to be talking about writing a few times throughout the season. So that's just a note that this won't be our only opportunity, and we intend to insert writing a few times and even have some interviews. We're hoping to be able to line those up. Folks are really busy this time of year, but this episode is more of those building blocks of writing and what teachers should know. And we've discussed, as I said, writing instruction many times. Sometimes it's framed within a conversation about structured literacy. And sometimes we've discussed a new book that helps provide teachers with some writing support. And today we're going to talk about the simple view of writing, and then the not so simple view of writing as a way to understand maybe the two main components, transcription and composition, and then for the not so simple view executive function, because we all realize how very difficult it is to pull this whole thing off. Really writing is is anything but simple, and there are many articles we could reference. So I was just looking at one the other day that I sent off to you guys to look at, and then Lindsay shot one off to me. That was fantastic, too. So we may reference a few along the way, but just know that there are. There are quite a few. Hopefully there will be even more information, because there are still some pieces lacking as much as we've now come to figure out about reading instruction, we need just as much information about writing, and it really is a lot more challenging. And there are even educators that will admit, when pressed, I'm not even comfortable with my own writing. How am I supposed to teach writing? And that's just being honest, right? That my own writing experience wasn't great. I'm not feeling really comfortable or confident with this, and so we have to realize that too when we're talking about writing. And so like I said, we may drop in some of these articles, but let's dive right in here, and let's start with transcription. What are some things we know about early handwriting instruction. Let's just start the conversation there. What are some things that we've learned and that we know about early handwriting instruction? Lindsay, what do you think?

Lindsay Kemeny:

Well, it's hard. You're talking about transcription, and you know there's a lot there, because you need to recall from memory what that shape of a letter looks like, right? So it's you know, recognizing the letter in print, in reading is easier than then retrieving it from memory. And not only do those students need to retrieve what you know the symbol looks like, but they need to remember how to form it. So right away, those two things can make students production of writing slower because they are working on that they've got to recall it. And then, oh, yeah, how do I write it? Oh, and maybe I have weak fine motor skills. So, so maybe I'm also trying to think about, how do I hold my pencil? You know, my paper is moving all over. Oh, I need a hand on my paper. And so there's a, you know, just handwriting. There's a lot of things that come into play there,

Stacy Hurst:

yeah, and that's what I was thinking about, the motor skill aspect of it. And we really need to develop those in those young students. It's not something that may come naturally, especially when we're talking about writing. So starting with the larger motor maybe really in preschool, they're drawing larger letters, but then, like Lindsay's saying, repetition is so vital for them to even remember the name. Which helps them recall the shape, right? So that's important to teach those and, yeah, I just really admire teachers who do that well, because it is time consuming and requires a lot of repetition with feedback

Donell Pons:

and something else too, as instructing older students is that we have an obligation too, that just because a student is now in middle school or a student is in high school, if you see a student who still has issues with transcription, there's still you see something, you say something, you do something. That's another thing I've always found surprising is looking at a student who's hunched over the desk and doing this very awkward and trying and not saying something about that? Absolutely not. I would say something about that. Hey, tell me what's going on here. Tell me about writing, what's what's happening for you. And then immediately you get a story, right? They're more than willing to share. Boy, this has always been hard. This is the kind of what it looks like, and it's not great. And so start pulling that apart, and then what are the pieces that I can do within this setting to help you? Because there are lots of things that I can do, everything from, let's get a better implement, to, can I slant that board for you? Because you can do a slanted board, and that's not that hard. They're not those difficult things. But there's still an obligation. If you see a student struggling with that, that's that's something I need to do something about. I think that's also interesting is to think, Oh, gee, now we're Middle School. Now we're high school. If I see that student who's really struggling over a piece of paper, over a piece of paper, and that's not the case, there's still plenty to be done. I even had a conversation just last night with my son who has dysgraphia. We've taught in fact, I have more than one son with dysgraphia. We've had this conversation many times about Tell me a little bit about so what's it what's it like for you now, even after all that practice, and it's still not great, and that's what's really interesting, is even after all the effort that we've put in, although it's much better and it's far better than what it was, and certainly they can, in a pinch, do those things, but because so much time was left before we really had the tools to intervene, so that early intervention is really important, and I love hearing Lindsay You talk about this a lot about the things that you do to help your students and provide those supports. So that's the transcription piece we talked we glossed over clearly. We could have a whole episode on how you teach handwriting, right? We could do many, many things, and we know the importance now too, of putting a sound as well with that symbol. Let's talk a little bit about that. Was that was that the instruction you guys were told to provide when you went through teaching programs was that emphasized at all when you two were going through, and I don't want to date anybody here, so many years ago, it was just two right? Two years ago when you graduated from college, yeah. What was it like?

Lindsay Kemeny:

I don't remember. Honestly, I don't. I don't remember any if it was even said, Do you remember? Yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't remember anything. I kind of, I don't, don't think I learned anything about it.

Stacy Hurst:

I do remember something because it in my young mind, I felt like it was kind of a waste of time. We had to fill out a Zaner bloser book. We had to do the letter formation ourselves. The emphasis was on us having good handwriting. And never do I recall that we were encouraged to attach the sound to the letter. It was very stringently how our handwriting looked. We practiced writing on the board, practice in that workbook, but I don't recall that we were connecting it to the sounds. That's interesting

Donell Pons:

how things have changed, right? We hope, we hope things have changed, right?

Lindsay Kemeny:

Emphasis is different. And I, I figure you're kind of asking us that Donell, because it's the other part of transcription, is spelling, right? So, and that's like, the beginning of that, the very beginning. It's just, you know, like you said, attaching those sounds to the letters, right? Connecting that and then you're going to learn more and more spellings for the different sounds we have in the language, and being able to apply those as they write. So it's just another and these are just like a little small piece of the complexity of writing, right? So like students are thinking about, you know, all all those components of handwriting, and then also, oh, and how do I spell the word that I am trying to write? Do you

Stacy Hurst:

know I have an interesting memory? As you're talking about that, Lindsay, I'm thinking about fluency too. Handwriting fluency, which absolutely can impact the way you're thinking when you write. My third grade teacher, I learned much later. It was his first year of teaching. I had no clue when I was a third grader, but he did focus on that. He would repeatedly have us write the alphabet as fast as we could. And I think the faster I got, the worse my handwriting got. But when you think about the opposite. Is the end of that, right? If it is so laborious to write, I mean, that falls into we're talking about accuracy, but also automaticity in this regard too.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, so thinking about that already, if you have a student where this is a challenge for various reasons, and you're clipping along in a classroom because we need to keep moving along, and a lot of the students are now getting more automatic with it. So when that teacher says, oh, let's quickly write them as quickly as we can, and at least Stacy, yours are somewhat legible, right? You realize they're probably getting sloppier, but you're able to do that rather quickly, and it's getting faster and faster. But what about that poor student two seats over, and they're not even halfway through that alphabet, yet. What's typical in a classroom is there time to slow things down for that student or do things keep moving. What's typical

Stacy Hurst:

that, I think, especially when it comes to these skills, we keep moving. I think the other thing, just because I brought up third grade and I'm curious, both for you and Lindsay. Donell, you and Lindsay, because you have sons who have dyslexia. Donell, you have some dysgraphia when they learned cursive. How did that impact their writing? Was it harder for them to learn, or was it smoother? Yeah, did it? What do you think? Because that's a whole other layer of Okay, so for years, we've got this down, but then also now we have to learn a new way to form the letters.

Lindsay Kemeny:

So and my son has dysgraphia as well, so it's often recommended for students with dyslexia to learn cursive. A lot of people have said, Oh, that makes it easier, because, you know you're you're forming, you know, all the letters are starting at the bottom, you are forming, like the B and the D very differently. You have to, I mean, I do teach my students to form those differently in manuscript, right? But in cursive, definitely they are. And that's all supposed to help for my son, the problem we had, like cursive was not easy. It took them a while already just to learn manuscript, and I do think that is best, like in kindergarten to start with manuscript, because that is what they're seeing in print when they read more often. And I know, like you know, people are on both sides of that issue, but for my son, when they were learning cursive, it was like third grade, and he was usually not in the room when they were doing cursive. So he was being pulled out, you know, for special education, for his resource. So he was missing all the cursive. And so it's not something that he got a lot of, you know, instruction for, and I would provide intervention for him, but I never focused on cursive, because we were just working on a million other things in our time together, so we didn't get to

Donell Pons:

it. Yeah, I'm so glad Lindsay, you tackled that question at first, because I thought I sound so negative, but we experienced the very same thing. So because your son is being pulled out, mine was being pulled out as well, he would miss all of the instruction. So I remember vividly when cursive was being taught fourth grade. It happened to be fourth grade at our elementary school because he was consistently held after school, because he couldn't finish the cursive, because he didn't know how to do the cursive, and we also had tutoring after school. So then that butt up against tutoring, and I just remember the stress of trying to race to each of those things, and cursive became a real burden. Cursive became a real burden because, as you've pointed out, too Lindsay, we were barely getting penmanship, just getting the letters and how to form the letters in that way that still wasn't automatic by any means, and then we're being introduced to what is now, what feels like to my son, an entirely new language, only you've missed the language lesson. You've just come in for the end, when everybody's speaking the new language that they've learned. That's what it felt like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's really interesting, but we don't think about those things that's that's the thing is that nobody's putting two and two together, because this is the child that's getting slotted in in different spots throughout the day, and so no one person is looking at that going, Wait a minute, was he even there for that instruction? Because it's a busy day, right? Classrooms are full and it's a busy day, and I think that's one of those things that we could spend more time on, is looking at where that student is and being more student centric, student focused on, what does that student need and what has been that student's experience today no more important than with writing, this very challenging skill that we're asking them to pick up do. So it was interesting because one of the studies I referenced was one that's talked about name writing at school, entry, predicting later spelling and handwriting, but not directly overall writing success. So what should we make of that the writing of your name can be predictive of some things, but not everything, and it wasn't predictive of later writing, but it was predictive of some things and Lindsay. How do you view name writing in Lindsay, Stacy L. Ask you too name writing by a student when they enter the classroom,

Lindsay Kemeny:

interesting, because I guess I hadn't, I mean, I don't know that. I've thought too deeply about this. And then you sent the article and it was saying that, because I think, you know, I just kind of wonder, well, the students that come in and know their name pretty easily. I can see how that's, you know, predicting of how they're going to do in some ways, because those students probably pick up on, you know, letters, letter names, sounds of formation a little easier than the ones who don't. So it's definitely a red flag for the ones that come in and have no idea how to write their name. Now I will say it could be just that they haven't had any instruction, but you, you, you see that really quick, because those ones will pick it up really fast, versus the ones who are still struggling to remember the letters in their name. It's, it's, it's just kind of clues you in as a teacher to this student's going to need more support, you know?

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, it's probably a type of a screening,

Donell Pons:

right? Because part of the screen, yeah,

Stacy Hurst:

well, that makes sense. And why is it that all of the students who have trouble producing ours have ours in their name? And why is it all the kids who have a hard time writing their name have like, 678, letters in their name. So that has to be taken into account too, because our working memory comes into play here, and we can only hold so many items in that space. So I think there's a lot to that.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Yeah, and names are irregular. I mean, I've seen some really unusual spellings for names because they don't have to follow any kind of English tendencies, patterns, you know, of English. They can do whatever they want when they spell that name. So that also can be hard, because it is in many cases, sometimes it is a random string of letters, you know. And I even had a student who, you know, had a very unusual spelling of her name, and I remember her, her father coming in at parent teacher conferences, and he couldn't spell her name. And, you know, there's a lot there, but it's, it's not regular. It's harder sometimes because they have these unusual spellings.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, what's interesting is it is part of or years ago, when I did the Susan Barton training for screening for dyslexia, was one of the questions on there. This is for older students. So they were saying, by fourth grade, have a student write their name, his or her name, and see, not only did they spell it, can they spell it correctly? How much time does it take them to do it, and what does it look like when they're done? That will tell you a lot, because about this point, the students had a lot of practice writing their name, his or her name

Stacy Hurst:

well, even being able to spell it verbally right, like, I don't know. I just remember one student I tutored, he couldn't spell his last name right away, automatically in print or in speech. He was in middle what

Donell Pons:

was interesting? In addition to that, they said that if they have a simple name, like Ben Sam, do they have a middle name? Have them write that as well? So again, they've seen it, they would know it that have some familiarity with it. And if things are they're laying things down, they should be able to recall that, which is kind of interesting anyway. Yeah, so just names. That's one thing that was brought up as well in transcription. How can teachers better recognize name writing as a matter of early transcription skills, we talked a little bit about maybe paying more attention to it in a classroom, particularly knowing ages. So I'm thinking here, particularly of teachers, third, fourth, fifth grade. By that point, if you're still seeing a student struggling with that name, it is important. I think that is an important conversation. That should be a piece of what you're looking at overall for that student is telling you something. If you see certainly by third, fourth, fifth grade, that's still a challenge for that student to write his or her name, then we ought to be talking about it, looking at it,

Stacy Hurst:

yeah, and you know, we've already had the pet peeves episode, but if you don't mind, throw one in here. As many of you know, I teach college students. I'm preparing them to be teachers. I have students who do not capitalize the first letter in either of their first or last names. And when we go to schools and I and they're turning in a paper to the teacher, like we'll do assessment, I literally have to say, you need to capitalize the first letter of your name. This is a job interview, but I'm also having my students do more writing in class, in large part to help them retrieve information, but I'm noticing all kinds of things like that, with their name, with writing, yeah, with

Donell Pons:

that. So that's that is really interesting. So that kind of leads into the second question about alphabet knowledge in general. Tell me a little bit about so Lindsay, in your classroom, alphabet knowledge. It out as a consistent predictor across years one and two for writing outcomes for students in that particular study that I've been referencing. Tell me a little bit about alphabetic knowledge in your classroom and some of the things that maybe you're looking for in students to see,

Lindsay Kemeny:

yeah, well, they've got to, you know, they have to be able to recognize the name of the letter, the sound of the letter, then they also have to, like I was mentioning before, like, recall that from memory. You know, definitely that's where you know, for writing that comes into play, they have to recall it, and they have to remember how to form it. So this is why in first grade, like, because even when I have students coming into my classroom in first grade and they know their letter names and sounds, and they might be already an advanced reader, or just a little, you know, above generally, no one like I don't think I've ever had anyone come into my classroom and really been proficient and at handwriting and being able to form the letters correctly. You know, they're all starting their letters at the bottom. They're not using them on the lines. And so I know you're asking, like, about the alphabet knowledge, and I'm bringing it back to handwriting again, but yeah, because as like, the better they know those critical features of the letters as they're writing them, the faster and the quicker they're able to recognize them. And there's, like, is research between that, there's a link, you know, between them being able to form the letter and then recalling the sound or the name, like, quicker as they're reading. So I just like, I really think it's so important. And, you know, really in every grade, but in first grade, a lot of times, our phonics programs will just go ahead and start, you know, you know, we don't review, or we barely review the alphabet, and I do like to at the beginning of first grade, you know, we spend a day on each letter, going through that letter formation, and we're still, I mean, we're still reading and writing CVC words and everything, but we're focusing on the formation of one letter a day with my verbal cues that I use, and it just helps us the rest of the year. I mean, even like today, we started, you know, some digraphs, and we're not, you know, we're not doing the alphabet anymore, but when I see them, like, when they do their P backwards, I'm like, Oops. Remember dig, roll around p, dig, roll around p. And just like them hearing that language that reminds them of how to form it, and then they can fix it. And it's not backwards, because if they form it the way I've taught them, it's not going to be backwards. So you know, that's just all goes into knowing that alphabet so well. And in what we'll do is, once see, now that we're all the way through our letters, I will periodically review those formations and the alphabet letters as we write them, A to Z. And you know, we'll do it together. At first, I'll do my verbal cues. Hook around small, down, a, tall, down, roll around B, and we go through the whole alphabet. And then, like Stacy was saying, I will time them for a minute. So then, on their whiteboards, in one minute, they see how many letters they can get. And I've set it up like it's not stressful, it's low stakes. I'm not writing anything down. They're just trying to use something. Yeah, it is, because you always can see those ones. Or, Oh, they don't know the alphabet. Or we need to sing the alphabet with this student because they don't know the order, you know. But they love it. They really love it. So I don't want to say, like, this is high stakes, and like, mean and timing, it is fun. And when we're done, they all kind of like, oh, and they can't wait just, you know, show each other how many they got. Or some will write the alphabet, you know, a couple times. And so yeah, it's

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah. And I don't think that can be overstated, because I know this is an area. I made a massive mistake when I taught first grade. And I didn't know better, to be honest, but I told my first graders, I just care that I can read it right. But what I started noticing whatever they're writing, sorry to clarify, but what I started noticing is the students who had a hard time with the alphabet specific letters, they would not form the same way every time, even if it was correct in the end, maybe they started the A with, you know, at a different point. And so as teachers, at once, I learned the research behind that. I started paying really close attention to the process, and not just the end product there. So I don't think that can be overstated. It sounds like you do a great job with that.

Donell Pons:

Lindsay, it does. It's fantastic. So Stacy, what I'm thinking in my mind is, do you have to stop yourself from trying to do some of this instruction with college students? Because this could be something they also need, right?

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Like I said, when I'm having them do our retrieval practice and exit tickets and they're I give them note taking guides, and when I'm those are also low. Stakes, to be fair, but I'm noticing so many things, punctuation, capitalization, spelling. It's the beginning of the semester. So I had we're not really learning about phonics yet, but we're learning it's one of the five areas the national reading panel found to be critical, and many of my students are spelling that word incorrectly, so I'm noticing those things.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, I work with readers of all ages, and one thing I've learned, when instruction aligns with the science, learners start to believe in themselves. Again, that's why this free teacher license to Reading Horizons Discovery is such a big deal. It's everything you need to deliver structured literacy, and it's free for the whole school year. So simple to use, and it makes a real difference. Go to reading horizons.com/free, and get started. Seriously, this is a win for you and your students. Okay, there's something before we move on to some of the composition pieces. What are the implications for oral language screening and development given its role with writing? I don't think we talk much about that, but boy, is that we're hearing more about it, which is nice to hear. Give me kind of an evolution of things. So Lindsay and Stacy. You know, you can divide this up however you want, but I want to hear what you thought years ago, versus how you do things now with oral language. What do you think Lindsay,

Lindsay Kemeny:

well, I don't think oral language was on my radar before. Honestly, that's kind of terrible, you know, and now it really is. I mean, I'm always telling my students like, you have to say it in order to write it. If you can't say it, you can't write it. And really, like, we need to think about that, like, if your student, you know, is is has these choppy sentences, struggles to talk in complete sentences, then they're not going to have that language as they go to write a sentence. And so I just value so much more like any conversations we're having, turn and talks, you know, when we're doing that sentence level syntax, you know, kind of the instruction in the classroom, I'm so much more intentional. And it's not just like, oh, that a noun is a person, place or thing. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's not it. It's like, you know, does their subject? Does their sentence have a subject? You know, it's, it's, how are they using language? Can they answer in complete sentences? Can we encourage them to answer in complete sentences? Can we make sure we're teaching vocabulary and have them practice using the vocabulary words? So there's a lot like, I'm a lot more intentional with any of the turn and talks or kind of, you know, conversations that I'm instigating

Unknown:

in my classroom. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:

and I think that's just such a critical connection. So I did learn something called the language experience approach. And I don't know if either of you are familiar with that, but I learned it as part of my whole language training as a pre service teacher. But essentially, you have an experience with a group of students, and then you talk about it, they talk about it, and you transcribe. You write down word for word, what they say. So it might look like Eduardo said that was fun, and you're doing all the conventions you know, as you would write, which I think is a good activity to help students understand the connection between speech and print. What was missing was it wasn't controlled for patterns that students could read, right? So I'm thinking all along the way that speaking makes writing less complex, to be honest, and I wish I had done a better job of that, because I even know I was somebody in honors and AP English in high school, but I was questioning my ability to put together a sentence well at that point, but if I had had all that practice in oral language first and pointing it out in speech, then it would make it a lot easier in writing to connect, make the connection between the two. And I

Donell Pons:

think when we're more intentional about having these conversations too, it does alert us to things that could potentially be a challenge for a student, right? I'm hoping it's we're catching kids earlier because we're being more intentional about those conversations, because that doesn't get any easier for that student who might be having a challenge. Also, we're realizing from research that a bit of intervention goes a long way, particularly in those early grades. We can do a lot for that, for oral language, in particular, when we're intentional about what we're doing with students. I hope all of those things help improve what we see happening there. So let's get into the kind of composition piece. What's going on in the classroom once we got the transcription is cooking. Say we got those kids, they have an implement in their hands. They know what to do with it. They're forming those letters. What should primary educators take from research when planned? Their early writing instruction. You're ready to go. You're raring to go. You've got a few spelling patterns under your belt, and you want to get these kids off and running with a bit of writing. Lindsay, what does that look like in your classroom?

Lindsay Kemeny:

Yeah, well, first I'll say that I don't have to wait until my students have all mastered handwriting, spelling, sentence levels before working on composition, I don't or oral language even like we're building all those skills simultaneously, and they all come together. And it's, it's really, it's really neat. And there's, like, historically, there are disagreements. There have been people who say, you know, they have to mount master sentence level before they work on paragraphs. And that's that one study I shared with you guys. It's called, it is called for our listeners. It's called, yes, they can developing transcription skills and oral language in tandem with srsd instruction. It shows, and it's, it's kind of like the first experimental study that the researchers were aware of done in first and second grade of how you can do work on all of those skills. This is what it's showing. And they're saying that people who think, Hey, you have to master these before we work on composition, that that's not informed in research. And they kind of explain that in their article. It's interesting so and so that is like, what I'm doing from the beginning of first grade. So, you know, you heard me talking about handwriting, yes, from the first day of school, we're working on handwriting. We're working on our spelling constantly, right? And then we're also working on composition. And so that one of the things I need to teach with composition is the writing process. And I am teaching them how we can pick our ideas, organize our ideas, write and say more, and we are connecting that with what we're reading about. So it's really tied to what we're learning and reading about, and then we're going to write about it. And we can do a couple sentences a day, and over the week, we're going to have a paragraph. But I it's, it's not on their own. I am scaffolding it right now, at this time of the year, we are like we're orally crafting those sentences together. So after, you know, we've talked about it, we've brainstormed, we've organized our notes, and then we take our notes, we have to turn them into sentences. So it's really great, because I can build in a lot of sentence level work right here, but in the context of, like, we're going to be building a paragraph so it's, it's so fun because they so, they'll, will, they'll turn to their partners, like I might give one way they could turn that these two words into a sentence. Then they turn, turn and talk to their neighbors, and I go around and listen as they're orally crafting these sentences. And then we share them. And then we'll choose which one to write. And then all together, we'll, we'll write the sentence. And I, you know, I'm like modeling. We will sound it all out together. We'll sound out the words. Like, this week we're writing about ways we can stay healthy, because that's what we're reading about. And so like for healthy, I'll say, let's say the sounds. Tell me the sounds and healthy. L, E, you know. And then I do like, I will spell it correctly, and I'll show I'll be like, what's the first sound? Yeah, we know that tall, down, row, down, H, okay, what's the next sound? Watch this spelling. It is that E, A, you know, and they're gonna do it with me. So we're reinforcing all those things that we were just talking about, like, with the handwriting and the spelling and connecting sounds and letters, but also doing sentences. So I could talk, I'll stop, I could go on and on and on, but like, that's how it looks right now. And then it's gradually going to get more they'll be more and more independent, and then soon they'll be doing like it all on their own. Yeah, not, I wouldn't say soon, but throughout the year.

Donell Pons:

And to be clear, Lindsay, what you're doing too, as the educator is you've got a good eye on what you're you've been teaching the students in terms of patterns so you know where their spelling should be. And there could be some things that, yep, we've yet to do them, and that's fine. It's not going to impact whether we slow down or not. We're going to down or not. We're going to keep writing. But as an educator, you're keeping an eye on those things to make sure okay is my instruction holding for those students as they're doing those things? And that's how that all comes together, is because Lindsay understands where her students are headed and what she's taught. It's okay to be filling in these things and having the students write more. That's awesome, but Lindsay's also keeping an eye on those things to see where the skill gaps are. So yeah, some teachers are worried about that, but that's how that works.

Lindsay Kemeny:

Yeah, and like, I'll say a pet peeve of mine, like Stacy did we just did our pet peeves episode last week, but I had a teacher one time that not I had a teacher, but I read on social media a teacher that was saying. You know, she she never would have her students spell any word that they hadn't been taught the spelling. So she's like, she was like, so I'm not going to have them, we're not writing about complex things, because I can't, they can't spell that. And I'm like, Oh, I think that is a huge disadvantage for your students, because what kind of language are they using? I want to elevate their language. And when they start writing on their own, like, like, this week, I'll have them do the ending sentence on their own. It's not going to be spelled perfect, because I'm going to have them, I'm going to say, write the sounds you hear, and it's okay. It's not going to be spelled perfect. But at this time, like it's actually, in my opinion, very important part of their progress, or their, yeah, their development, to be able to match, you know, just listen to the sounds and write them that estimated spelling is an important step. And the ones that always just want you to spell everything for them, they're missing that phonemic awareness step of really applying those segmenting skills and then writing what they hear, right? So when we spell everything for them, that's not always the best either, you know. Like when they're writing independently, like, I'm just like, hey, don't worry. Write the sounds you know, you know.

Stacy Hurst:

So I like to refer to that as temporary spelling too, because sometimes, like, when they get it incorrect, and you know what? It's a good opportunity to teach about the writing process, because everything that gets shared should be edited, right? And that would come out in the editing, like you would talk about, oh, let's spell this word. This is how you spell this word, and so forth,

Lindsay Kemeny:

yeah. And they don't have to be perfect right away. So even then I'm like, pick your battles. If, if, if it's a high frequency word, like, what I'm going to want to show them that, because I don't want them writing W, U, T, so many times that that becomes, yeah, how they spell it. But you know, any other words, it's, like, healthy, you know, or even like, Okay, if they did was one time it's w, z, okay, and I'll be like, I'm going to teach the whole class. Was because we're writing, you know, we're using that a lot in our writing, so I want them to know it. So, yeah, I

Stacy Hurst:

learned that lesson early on. I had my students literally week one of first grade label things in the classroom, and they were using, let's call it estimated spelling. So our prize box was a priz box, clear until I taught the magic E, right? But if I had to do it again, I'd say, Oh, we're going to put this, you know, everybody's going to see it. It's published, so I need to, you know, I'd add the correct spelling. But no, I think those are definite opportunities. And this is what I love about Aries phases. Writing is the best way to tell where a student is with that, and that will help you to move them forward anyway. So if they are spelling something like w, z, you know exactly where they are, right? Yeah.

Donell Pons:

So interesting, because Lindsay, you've walked us through the steps and I and it's so nice to hear it broken down that way, thinking of a first grade classroom, because by the time a student lands, perhaps in your middle school, high school, even college classroom, and they're really struggling with writing. It's kind of nice to go back, just like you do with reading, and see exactly those pieces have a reminder of those pieces here in this student that's now sitting in that classroom, it's fully integrated, right? You're doing full integration, but never remove that oral piece. This is the piece that I see oftentimes missing for the older students in their writing instruction, is the bypassing of what can be a really important aspect of writing, and that is the oral conversation piece, having a student discuss what they're going to write, we skip that step. I can't tell you how many classrooms I walked into, and it's like, well, when are we going to talk before we write? There's no conversation. It's critical. It's a very critical piece. And just heard Lindsay talking about it in her classroom. So don't forget it, right? And those students need an opportunity well,

Lindsay Kemeny:

and those older students too, like, don't you think the breakdown is always like, they don't, they don't know how to organize their thoughts to begin with, and they don't do an organized you know? And I just have to give a shout out to everything I've learned from srsd and Dr Cain Harris. And think srsd With Dr Leslie Laude, this is like, where I've learned all this amazing information. But, you know, they need to be able to. I mean, from the time they're in first grade, I'm teaching them how to pull apart a prompt. And, you know, we read the prompt, and I go, do what, and they're like, do what. And I'm like, What is this asking us to do? What's the doing? Word, oh, describe. Okay, we're supposed to describe. What are we supposed to describe? Ways to stay healthy. Oh, okay, ways to stay healthy. So think about like your older students in sixth grade, or even more. I mean, sometimes those writing prompts are complex and they're long, and you've got to, like, teach them how to pull that apart first so they even know what to write about in the first place.

Donell Pons:

So my older students, here's something else. You need to give older students the opportunity I let them read those prompts and say, How do you feel about the prompt? That matters, that matters, how they feel about the prompt, particularly when they're older, right? We forget all about motivation. You know, maybe when I'm younger, I don't mind answering the questions about that, but if I'm in sixth grade and you're still asking me about my summer vacation, maybe I think that's a pretty lame question. So you have a right to have an opinion about the prompt. That's the first thing we get off the table. Right off the bat, how do you feel about the prompt? And a lot of kids will say, I don't like it at all. Tell me I don't like it. Why don't like it? Because of this, I had to write that last time I get all their opinions, those are all valid. That's fantastic. That's going to be part of what you're writing about. It is it can be absolutely that's part of your prompt. So then we'll start pulling it apart. How we answer that question? How does your opinion get to be part of your answer? Oh, I see how I can incorporate that here. Do not divest that student away from their feelings about things. That's writing. Writings are feelings, right? Losing that piece about writing, it's making kids think it's all antiseptic, right? Who wants to do that?

Lindsay Kemeny:

And teachers can have an opinion too on the prompts, because sometimes, like in your core program, you read a prompt and you're like, well, that's ridiculous. So, you know, I think you can change it. Change it. I just had someone in our like writing Facebook group that shared a prompt in their program, and I can't remember what grade. It wasn't really a higher grade. It was like maybe third or or something, and it was asking them to write a story. So like a narrative about, I think it was dolphins. But then there was all these things saying that they had to include all these, like informational facts about dolphins in the narrative story. So it was like a narrative nonfiction. And I was like, Whoa, that is so that is so complex, that is so hard for them, like, you know, like a narrative alone is is hard to write, but especially when you're also supposed to be making it, like all these nonfiction things in there, informative things. So I, I'm like teachers, you can, you can, you know, change the prompt. If you Well, I guess I'm not your principal or your district. You know, if it was me, I would just say, change the prompt. And a lot of times, our comprehension questions in our programs make really good prompts. Those are better a lot of times than the writing prompt that they have, and the comprehension questions will relate directly back to what they're reading.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, what do you think, Stacy, you've been nodding your head and laughing. This is a lot of this is resonating.

Stacy Hurst:

Yes, it is. And of course, I'm thinking about my most recent setting, which is older learners, but learning how to be teachers. Obviously, I have mentioned before on this podcast that at the first of the semester in a specific class, they have to write an essay about five books that have impacted their life the most. And I learned really quickly in my first couple of years of giving that assignment that I had to be way more detailed about that if you read the instructions now, it literally goes paragraph by paragraph. Introduction paragraph you should mention all of the books you're going to address. Second paragraph should be book 1/3. Paragraph, book two. A paragraph is data, you know, not just a sentence, more than a sentence and and then you should have a concluding paragraph that says, right, because you can't assume,

Donell Pons:

yeah, what's interesting, too. I remember back some of the best and most well I thought they were really fun. I guess I should ask my students what they thought I was having a good time doing the prompts with my students. So I always would reserve a few where I would do it too, and then I would read they'd read theirs, and I'd read mine, and we'd laugh over our differences or some of the similarities, and they thought that was a lot of fun too. So it's also I'm never above the assignment I'm giving my students ever. I mean, that's the other thing too, particularly with those older learners, because that gets really tiresome to them, to think it's just like somebody watching you go around the track and yelling, good job, give me another lap. That's not fun to have that person yelling at you about running another lap. How about you come down here and run a few laps?

Stacy Hurst:

Donell, are you suggesting that I write that essay? I cannot choose five books. Yes. Stacy, would I do that? How would I do that? I would not feel I'm a hypocrite. See, see, well, I can give them other exemplars, good suggestion, though, honestly and it does bring to mind for me that that aspect of modeling it, which Lindsay you just described, that perfectly you do that it's built in, but on every level, right?

Donell Pons:

Yeah, and having fun with it too. So I mean, we talked about very practical and this is exactly what we wanted to talk about, and we're probably gonna have to wrap up here, because, trust me, we could do this for the next few hours. We have plenty to say about this topic, so we're all gonna have to cut it off at some point. But it's also, though. Those things that you can do to make writing fun too. And we didn't get a chance to talk about those, and I didn't really ask you to. So it's not like we had an opportunity, but as a reminder, too, for older students, no matter what the setting, trying to make it fun for the students. And so I remember sometimes I'd have my students pretend they were reporters because and I would tell them a little bit about be what it was like to be a reporter. That was something that I did as a job. And would even make little reporter notebooks, and they would have to use that in their hand. So I would show them what a reporter notebook looked like. And it is a certain size for a reason. It fits into the palm of your hand, so you can flip the pages and write with the other hand. Oh, they thought that was endlessly interesting. So then it's, oh, what notes could you take? And I would be the subject. They would write the story, but just ways to then make it fun as well. We do have to do these practical things. We are teaching them very specific skills. We are being explicit in what we're doing and giving them opportunities. But then we're also infusing this with some joy and some fun, right?

Lindsay Kemeny:

Absolutely, and like I love I think you know, if you are really setting yourself your students up for success, they're going to enjoy it. They're gonna have fun. And I love it, like my students love writing time, and even, like, we're only, you know, a month into school and they're already like, Oh, I like this. When I'm like, get out your writing folders, they're like, Oh, I like this, you know. And we do, we'll sing chants, we sing little songs. It's fun because they're turning and talking and then coming back and sharing they like when I model things, I will well, and I will say for the spelling is kind of fun, like it's just, I can be silly and fun with them, like with the spellings that they haven't learned. Like we were writing about our body organs last week. So we're writing the word stomach, and I'm like, it looks like stone match. And they just thought that was so funny. And every time, you know, we went to write stomach, they're like, stone match. And they just thought it was hilarious. And it's just like this, you know, silly little thing. But then, you know, and then I will model for them, and I will model like some positive self talk. And so I'll pretend like I'm, like, this persona. I'm like, oh, now I'm a student, and, you know, I have like, a pretend name, and I act like I'm a student. And I'll show some of the like, I will be like, Oh, I wonder when lunch is. Oh, I'm hungry. Oh, my hand hurts. Oh, oh, I need to use my self talk focus one step at a time. Don't worry. Think of fun, new ideas. You know, I can, and they just, they're kind of entertained by it, but they're also, you know, getting some examples of how when they start getting distracted or have a hard time, they have to pull themselves back. Happens to everyone. So I just think, I don't know, writing is one of my I mean, I say this almost about every part of my day. I'm like, it's one of my favorite parts of the day. But really, writing is so it is so fun. They really like it. They enjoy it. So I love that you brought that up, Donell,

Stacy Hurst:

and there's nothing like seeing them generalize it. So I loved this about teaching first grade that parents would say, Oh, they're writing all the time. They wrote me a note. They, you know, all these things are so cute and fun, and I do like the idea of making sure it's fun. Donell, you would be impressed. One thing we did every time somebody had a birthday in my class is they would be interviewed, and we made serious business of it. They'd sit up front in a high chair, and then we had a microphone that we asked, you know, the report, the rest of the class were the reporters, and then they would each write a page about this person after we've interviewed them, and that person would get a birthday book. And it was always fun when you were looking over these birthday books by the end of the year, because they went in the classroom library till the end of the year, you could tell the students that had birthdays towards the beginning of the year compared to the end of the year, there is always much more refined writing in the end. But they loved that, and they could see that there's application to writing beyond you know what we're doing in school, and just how beneficial that can be.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, this has been great. Thank you so much. Again. We promise we will have more than one conversation about writing, so there will be more. But this was just really a nice kind of introduction, kind of come back around, maybe some things we've talked about or thought about and getting our grounding in it again, things you maybe want to talk about a little bit more, maybe with your other teachers in your school or something. Or maybe it was just fun to have a little time here to kick back and just listen about writing again, but this has been fun. Thank you so much for the conversation.

Stacy Hurst:

Yeah, thank you. It's very timely for me too, because I am writing a new course that will include writing for pre service teachers, and honestly, it's a little overwhelming. How do you fit it into a semester? Right? So I'm taking notes. I'm learning from both of you and I look forward to our other conversations about writing. If anybody in our land of listeners has any suggestions, I'm open to those too, but thank you so much for listening. I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I did. So thank you Donell and Lindsay and hope. Hopefully you'll join us for the next episode of literacy talks.

Narrator:

Thanks for joining us today. Literacy talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where literacy momentum begins. Visit reading horizons.com/literacy talks to access episodes and resources to support your journey in the science of reading.