Literacy Talks

Episode 121: Turning Awareness into Impact with Kareem Weaver

• Reading Horizons • Episode 121

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In this powerful conversation, Kareem Weaver—literacy advocate, educator, and featured voice in The Right to Read—challenges us to rethink what’s at stake when students don’t learn to read.

From personal stories to system-wide solutions, Kareem makes a compelling case: literacy isn’t just an educational issue—it’s a matter of opportunity, equity, and responsibility. This episode moves beyond awareness and into action, exploring what it really takes for schools, leaders, and communities to ensure every child has a genuine chance to read.

If you’ve ever wondered what it will take to truly change literacy outcomes, this conversation is a must-listen.

Show Notes

  • Kareem Weaver’s journey into literacy advocacy and education
  • Why literacy is more than instruction—it’s access to opportunity
  • The concept of “civil wrongs” in education
  • What’s holding schools back from improving reading outcomes
  • The critical role of leadership, policy, and teacher preparation
  • What successful literacy systems have in common
  • Why adult collaboration (or lack of it) is the biggest barrier
  • A vision for schools where all students learn to read

Resources Mentioned

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Narrator:

Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere, brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy Talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights and practical strategies for helping all learners reach reading proficiency. Our hosts are Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor for Reading Horizons. Donell Pons, a recognized expert and advocate in literacy, dyslexia and special education, and Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author and speaker. Now let's talk literacy.

Stacy Hurst:

Welcome to this episode of literacy talks. I'm Stacy Hurst, and I'm joined by Donell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny and a very special guest, and we are going to let Donell let we are lucky enough to have Donell lead this conversation, and so I will let her introduce who our guest is. For those of you who are just listening, you cannot see this person on the screen yet, so Donell take it away.

Donell Pons:

Great. Happy to and our guest is Kareem Weaver, and I'm sure many of you in the literacy space are well aware of his work already, so this should be a fun conversation. And for those of you who don't know and aren't aware, then you're going to be introduced to someone you're going to want to follow, because his work in the literacy space is phenomenal. So we're very pleased to have you with us today, and Kareem, I'm just going to have you start off by giving us a little background about how you were in the education space, what you've been doing in the past, and maybe just start us off there.

Unknown:

Sure. So I got into the education space kicking and screaming. I didn't want to do it. That's not true. I wanted to do it, but I wanted to do it after I, you know, established myself financially, and, you know, I'm a first gen college kid, so I wanted to finish grad school first, and all that jazz. And fortunately, God had different plans for me. I came down with a heart condition

Donell Pons:

because

Unknown:

about 20. I don't know how I was in my 20s, and it was a wake up call, which was to say that you just never know how life you know you can't keep score like that. You just don't know what life's going to be. You don't know if you're going to be here tomorrow, whatnot. So I realized I better get about the business of doing what I'm here to do. And I knew all along that was education and teaching. I didn't want to do it yet. So it yet, so I went into education, and haven't looked back. You know, thank God I was able to do that, because it, it allowed me to to live a life of purpose and try to make a difference in a way that that's that's needed. So that's how I kind of got into it. And I've always loved education. I've loved literacy. I've loved loved teaching. I've done all the different roles, most of them in education and teaching was my, my favorite by far. You can just close your door and do what you got to do. But have pivoted now towards working towards getting greater access for all kids to learn how to read and for teachers to support them. So that's, that's, that's my work. That's my story. That's how I got

Donell Pons:

here. Yeah, Kareem, I love that, and it's no surprise to hear that it was a calling in many ways, because you are so passionate, and I can't imagine you doing anything else. You seem so natural as a teacher. It's really, really interesting to hear about

Unknown:

that. Well, you know what this is? It's interesting you say that when I started out teaching in Oakland, at least there was this big conversation or debate about, are great teachers born, or are they made?

Donell Pons:

This

Unknown:

was a big thing. All the old teachers would talk about this, and as a newer teacher, I just kind of listen in, and it's a good question. I bet your listeners have their own opinion about that, but I don't know, and I still don't have an answer. I think, I think a person can become good at it. I know that much. They may not start off now, great. I don't know, but you can do it. And that's what I think we got to focus on, is, how do we get more people to be able to do the job well, with what they have, the tools they have, and the skills that they can develop over time? So yeah, I'm, I'm passionate about it, because I love it. And really, how can you not this? Is this? There's some, there's some jobs where if you don't have your heart in it, it's just not gonna work out too well for you. You know, it's just not it's just it's too hard of a job to do. And if you're not in it, if your heart's not there, you're not gonna last too long. You know, you're just gonna be miserable. But if you do love it, if it's in your man, there's nothing better. Her, there's nothing better. So, yeah, I'm really fortunate to have been able to do the thing I love to

Donell Pons:

do. Yeah, you know, it's funny, you should bring that up Kareem, because I read a book years ago on education by Diane Ravitch. She used to write a bunch of books on education, and she brought up underneath that, are we born to be teachers? Can we be taught to be good teachers? And she brought up that she had a fantastic teacher. Growing up in the fourth grade, still remembered her English teacher, and she said she was phenomenal. Not everybody would have liked her, though her style was very different. Some people probably would have come in the room and thought, What is she doing? But we loved her. So I thought that was really interesting too. Is the perception of the individual receiving the teaching too? Anyway, you've just got me thinking about a lot of things.

Unknown:

Diane Ravitch, whoever that fortified teacher was, she can't hold a candle to first grade King Elementary School Richmond, California in the 70s. Miss Carol stremsky, may she rest in peace. That's my favorite all time. Teacher, man. Miss strimsky, in a in the hood. Hood. Miss Carol stremsky was an old white lady, and she taught that thing, and she made us feel like something, because she taught every day, and she brought joy into it. She made the stuff come alive. She put happy faces on my paper. In fact, when I was in college, when I graduated from college, I looked into this cabinet, and my parents had and in that cabinet were all these papers from first grade, none of the other stuff. But what Miss strenski had? They kept and she taught hard, you know? So, yeah, you remember the teachers who, who breathe it, you know, who it exudes. They're prepared. You can tell you can't fake that. They're prepared every day. They're ready for you. And it just makes such a difference. And teachers make such a difference in kids lives.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, that is fantastic.

Unknown:

No shade on your fourth grade teacher. I'm sure they're

Donell Pons:

great. No shade. So Kareem, that gives us a great background for generally getting into education. Was there a particular moment or experience that made literacy feel like a personal mission for you? Literacy in particular?

Unknown:

Is there an individual moment? Well, I'd say this when I was in college in Morehouse. My study partner was Ennis Cosby was Bill Cosby's son, and Ennis was dyslexic. He was my study partner. Terrible study partner. Great guy, terrible study partner. And come find out he was dyslexic, and he went off to some school. I forget the name of the school, but it was landmark, Landmark College. It was a school for kids with dyslexia, I believe. And he came back a new man and and, you know, between Innis and I, we figured, we're going to change education, turn it upside down, fix it, you know, just like that, right? Just fix it. And I was going to do just like in the hood stuff, and he was going to do special ed, and unfortunately, he lost his life. His life was taken from him, and but I've always carried that with me. But it was all about getting kids to read. When you have friends and loved ones who are dyslexic, it becomes very real to you. And I didn't really understand dyslexia at the time. I just first I'd ever heard of it,

Donell Pons:

yeah, but

Unknown:

I understood that he went from A to Z when he got some help. I realized that this dude was smart. I knew he was smart already, but he was just a terrible study partner. Oh my gosh. Drove me crazy. But when he got to help, he was like, he was pulling better grades than me. I was like, What? What is this? And so there's kids like that all across the country who just need to support and help, and whether they have dyslexia or something else, another learning difference, if we as the adults do what we need to do, we acquire the training and skills that we need, the leadership, the support, the materials and all this, if we get our act together, policies are in place, we can reach kids. So for me, that's the moment that I said, Okay, this is what I'm going to do, and it's not made that agreement. I've stuck to it.

Donell Pons:

Wow. I'm glad that you shared that story with us. I did not know that, and I was aware of Ennis and ennis's work. You're right, absolutely bright, very bright individual, very promising work in education. Yes,

Unknown:

he was good dude.

Donell Pons:

You also bring up the point about personal. When it becomes personal, it becomes quite different. When you know someone, you see what's what the challenge is. And the other thing that's interesting to think about Kareem is how much, how many resources Ennis would have had available, and yet he still made it that far. And was going, what's going on. How come this is so hard? What's difficult? That's really interesting.

Unknown:

Well, you can have the So, okay, so you bring up some really good points. They didn't know what to do. They didn't know how to help him. But I gather he was struggling, struggling like it was not easy for him. Now, his personality was such that, you know, hello friend, and very laid back, very easy. Going but, but he wanted to do well, and he did carry scars with him from people in his orbit who didn't quite understand. Why can't you be more like this person or that person? And you know when you're going through that and people don't have answers, they reach for whatever they're familiar with. Their understanding will allow them to see maybe it's lack of effort, maybe you're not trying hard enough, maybe you're just not that bright. Maybe not to say this was how, but this is common. And so the question is, can we help kids? It's not just can we help them, but can we help them in time before those narratives and those explanations become rooted in the kids psyche, and they they take those things as being their truth. Well, maybe I'm not that smart. Well, maybe I'm not as smart as my brother or my sister. You know, maybe, maybe school isn't for me, or maybe, maybe, you know, you have to be, and that's why timing matters. We want to catch kids early. We want to give them the support they need early, and not let it metastasize to the point where, hey, at this point, there's nothing we can do. So the experience I had with Ennis was interesting because he was a very honest man, and he he taught me a lot and also taught me the kind of patience and humility of spirit that's needed to support people who have learning differences. He was very easy going guy, very mild mannered, very funny in his own way, kind of dead pan humor, but patience was what I learned, and grace for ourselves and others, and when it's personal like that, and people you know who are affected that you know that they're smart, you know, they're bright, whether it's your child or relative or whomever friend, it does become personal, because you said to yourself, there's no way this person who I know is is very, very intelligent, should be struggling like this. But yet, here we are. So it forces you to open your eyes to some things that most of us just because of the way we learn things, it's hard for us to see, and frankly, that's what a lot of educators deal with too in the classroom, they learn they may have learned to read very easily, and so it's difficult for them to perceive what other children may need. And so we go along with trends and methodologies that really aren't in service of the greatest number of kids learning to read, because as far as most of us know, all you have to do is try hard, and, you know, grab a book and go to a nice nickel grandma. It's be all right,

Donell Pons:

but

Unknown:

it doesn't work out that way for our kids.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, yeah, we've touched on some amazing things, and you have made a point to make a connection with reading and being given the true and real opportunity to learn to read, which means teachers are trained well to teach every student that comes across the threshold of that doorway with civil right, explain that for us, because that's very powerful.

Unknown:

Well, I won't talk about civil rights. I talk about civil wrongs today.

Donell Pons:

It's

Unknown:

wrong. It's wrong not to give kids a chance.

Donell Pons:

Yeah,

Unknown:

it's wrong. It's wrong not to get, you know, public education. I'm a taxpayer dog on it, you know, I mean, and I get paid, believe me, they go on my check and get out everything that they supposed to get, right? So that means I expect the road to be paved. I expect the fire department to come when I call them, I expect, you know, all these basic services. This is part of my tax money at work, the free and appropriate public education. That doesn't matter if my child is a six foot five inch basketball player, or if they're five foot 10 in scrawny they still have the right. They still have the right. Doesn't matter if they're dyslexic, doesn't matter if they're neurotypical. They still have the right doesn't matter what color they are, what side of town they live on. So in a public institution of civil society. We have that right to expect that. So with that being said, we have to start thinking about, you know, what are the things that we demand, the civil rights that that we are paying, we're paying to put feet on it. We have the right, but you have to actualize it, operationalize, and that's what the taxes do. But there are civil wrongs. If you're denying kid, kids the opportunity to learn to read, man, that's wrong. It's just wrong. You know, whether I don't care what the law says, It's just wrong because they have, they need that to survive in this society. It is it is brutal. It is brutal. I'm giving a talk to in San Quentin. It's a penitentiary in California. They have a symposium. This is the third one. They're very excited about it. So I'm gonna go to this. And I've done some work out there before. And when I talk to guys out there in the prisons like this, this, this is not even a debate. People who get locked up oftentimes just cannot read.

Donell Pons:

Yeah,

Unknown:

and literacy is currency. So we're talking about, you know, is this a civil right or wrong, or should we do it this way or that way? Here they are in the penitentiary. History bartering based on literacy, because if you can't read and you get a letter from grandma, guess what you'll do just about

Donell Pons:

anything.

Unknown:

Anything means anything, to have somebody read that letter for you, and it opens you up to all kind of negative outcomes, even inside the penitentiary. But it shouldn't take for a person to be in that station of life to get the support that they need. There's some things that we have to have in order to access civil society. That's the right to vote, that's, that's, you know, get a driver's license, that is to fill out a job application, to get a loan, you have to read to do these things, just to make your way. And so when I talk about civil rights, and this is not some pie in the sky egalitarian ideal, it's just basics of surviving a civil society, you ought to have a chance, because if we can't do this, then not much else matters. And the last thing I say on this, well, unless you have a follow up question, is that we oftentimes try to put a band aid on that one, whether it's some social program, whether it could be in school, it could be a social emotional program. And I understand that the people like social emotional programs, but there's no band aid you can put on that thing if the kid can't read, teaching them how to sit down and be quiet is that's not a solution. That's a band aid. And oftentimes we treat the the impact of the effects without treating the actual original irritant, you know? And so that's, that's what literacy is. It's a right. It accesses all these different doors in society. You know? It's kind of like this guy, Howard Fuller, used to say that back in the day, people fought for the right to sit at a lunch counter, you know. Now they sit at the lunch counter and they can't read the dog on menu.

Donell Pons:

And

Unknown:

so it's just, it's a different generation. And every generation has got their own struggle that they have to deal with, and this is one that we have to wrestle with. We just have to,

Donell Pons:

yeah, we have,

Unknown:

sorry, that was a long that was a long winded answer, but you know that that's something that I'm very passionate about, and I think, I think this is something that's one of the few things in our society that cuts across all the different camps, you know, racial, ethnic, linguistic, geographic, regional. When I go to Patrick County, Virginia with a story a statue of Jeb Bush across the library, or when I go to Seattle, Washington or Portland, Oregon, where people are sleeping in tents because they're fighting an authoritarian, you know, whatever they all want their kids to read, they all do. Or if I'm in some Midwestern town, or if I'm in Iowa, right, Cedar Rapids, it's the same thing. And it's, it's human nature to put our kids first. Those who can't, and I can work with just about anybody on this, probably except for people who don't put their kids first, that's the only thing. Is, as long as you put kids first, I don't care how you vote, what color, your language, class, whatever like we're all people, and we can argue about the rest of tomorrow, but today we focus on literacy. But if you don't put kids first, I really don't know what to what to do. I don't I don't understand it. I don't understand as a parent, you know, but, but most people, of just most people, understand the kids are a priority. They're our most precious resource, and we got to do whatever we can to support them. And it doesn't matter what they look like or sound like, they're all

Donell Pons:

our kids. Well said, well said, so Kareem, you had an opportunity to say a lot of this in a documentary. The right to read, which is phenomenal. Again, if you haven't been able to see it, I highly recommend it. And what story were you hoping the film would tell? And you've had enough opportunity to go around and hear people now, did it tell that story? What are you hearing? What's the feedback?

Unknown:

So two things, one, I didn't have I didn't go in trying to tell a story. It's not it's a pure documentary, meaning they just happen to follow us around. I wasn't trying to make a movie. I didn't have a script or or try to get a storyline through us. None of that. It was just doing what I'm doing, you know, like, this is my life's work, and just because you stick a camera in front of me, I'm not gonna change what I'm doing. And so I was just being myself. In fact, the director basically started following us around and said, Do you mind my thinking was, I'm not sure where this project is going to lead, but if it can help people bring awareness to the topic, I think that's a good thing. So I'm in that was my thinking, and you're just going to see what you can see, and let the chips fall where they may. And I think it turned out pretty well, we're actually involved in another film now called left behind, which is it was just nominated for NAACP award for. Best Documentary, and it's about parents who have dyslexic children. It's the same thing, like we're just doing what we're doing. And I got a camera out, I got online help us tell a story. People, unfortunately, you know, don't read as much as they used to, but people watch movies, you know. So we're looking for different platforms to get people to open their eyes to what's going on in society, because right now, there's a lot of noise. There's a lot of very serious things in the world and and they deserve our attention Absolutely, but you can't focus on everything. I'm just hoping to elevate this into the into the into the space where we can at least think about it, discuss it, and resolve it. Doesn't have to be the number one issue on people's mind. If that's not their thing, fine, but dog laundry ought to be on your mind how your kids are doing. So that's that's for me, that was the goal, and it's just what we've been doing at fulcrum, the organization that I lead. And so they, they filmed it and put it on the silver screen. It turned out all right. It didn't it didn't hurt that LeVar Burton was involved. It didn't hurt that he came on board as an executive producer.

Donell Pons:

And,

Unknown:

yeah, it didn't hurt so we go on a stump. And he would, you know, I'm giving my all. I'm doing all this and and people get, like, applause, man, he nod his head, say a couple words to everybody. Give him a standing ovation. Oh, my God, brilliant, just play. He's a good dude, and reading also is his passion. His family's passion. He's mentioned is, I believe his mother and other family members were educators in Arkansas, and so he is a lifer, you could say, Reading Rainbow. And then before that, of different things he's done, and he takes it very, very seriously. So we're very honored to have his participation as well with left behind. One of the executive producers is Mullins. Is a drummer for YouTube. Some of you YouTube fans out there might know Mullins, his son is dyslexic, and you know, so when it hits you, when you when you experience that, you want to get involved. You want to be part of anything that can help bridge the gap and help your child, ideally, but then if you can help other children as well.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, and Karine, you mentioned fulcrum there. Give us a little because this is an organization that does a lot of great work. Tell us about a little bit. For those who don't know about your work with fulcrum,

Unknown:

it's a nonprofit we're trying to get kids to read. That's it. I can say more, but that's the gist of it. I mean, listen, so we work with state departments, school districts, some schools, but it's mainly the districts in the state departments, and we try to help people in terms of policy, in terms of practices. We're working with higher education institutions, colleges and other entities to help them figure out how best to support their teacher trainees or pre service teachers. We're just a nonprofit that's trying to help kids learn to read. And you would think that, with all the expertise we have in our country, this would be something that is just like we already know what to do, yeah, but that's not the case. A lot of people are really trying to figure this out, and I give them a lot of credit, whether it's in universities, you had a chance to talk with a dean down in Georgia Southern? Oh, no, Georgia was Georgia Southern or Georgia State? I think it was Georgia Southern. Georgia Southern. I could be wrong, but she was just breaking down how she has worked to pivot things in her institution, and the lift that it takes to do that. It's not easy. We've got some some higher ed institutions that are really kind of stuck. So we do at fulcrum is we partner with them, have conversations with them, share with them some other ways of doing things, and maybe provide some professional development. Look through their methods classes, which is the big one, methods one and methods two. Are they aligned? Are they aligned with the science and research consensus? And we go from there, but likewise, we will support school districts if they want to create a Literacy Plan. Think about how they're adopting curriculum. Think about how they're engaging their labor partners, because there's some structures that you have to put in place if you're going to take this thing seriously. I'm not a lawyer. All I know is you can't adopt a curriculum that takes five hours to prepare for but you only have one hour to prepare with your teachers. That's a problem. So some structural issues that have to be resolved that we point out and say, Hey, you might want to think about this. Think about this. You guys go in a corner and work this out, but for kids and teachers to benefit and get this thing right, these are the things that have to be made, made clear. So we do that type of work. It's behind the scenes. It's not very glitzy and glamorous. We're fortunate that there are people who care about this stuff and who are willing to support us. We're very grateful for them. My My grandmother was our first donor. You know, may she rest in peace. She she gave me some gas. Money one day, she's like, keep doing what you're doing, baby. So rest in peace of my grandmother. But we, we, we're just trying to get kids to read. It is, it is a very simple mission. It's not very ornate, but it is behind the scenes work that has to be done, whether it's by us or somebody else. Someone has got to make sure that people are focused on the right thing, as we say, keep the main thing, the main thing, not distracted, but all these other things are going on in society

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Donell Pons:

brought up some interesting points. Then, when you were talking about the work of fulcrum, it's all the nuts and bolts and the things going on behind the scenes that can really impact how well an organization, say a school, is able to change their way they do literacy and improve their outcomes. It takes a lot, doesn't it?

Unknown:

It does take a lot. But I'm, if you don't mind, I must take a step back just one quick second. I mentioned my grandmother. My grandmother was a domestic for over 50 years. A domestic is just basic, like a housekeeper or a servant right over 50 years, scrubbing people's toilets and nursing their babies and whatever, washing the dishes, I don't know, changing diapers and very, very but with that, she and my grandfather, we rest in peace. They raised, well, they had nine kids. Eight survived. So they raised eight kids, and here I am, you know, college degree and all this stuff, and I'm on your wonderful podcast, and I it makes me think about the sacrifices that have been made for us to do the things that we do and I, and there's a version of that all around the country. It may not have been a housekeeper, maybe a person went off to war. Maybe a person just sacrificed their dreams like stay with the family and do this or that or or maybe, maybe a person chose to go left instead of right. Like people, we're not here on our own right. People have have offered themselves so that we could be here. The least we could do, the least we could do is honor them with some decency and and to prioritize our children and to act like we have some doggone sense and play well enough in the sandbox to handle what our generation is tasked with doing. I cannot fight my grandmother's generation, okay? She they fought their fight. They they did all the things that they'd had to do in their time, right? And I honor them for that. And you know what? Now, here we are. The question is, what are we going to do with our mandate, our generation's time? Did we step up? You know, there are things that I didn't go through a Great Depression. She she did. I didn't, right? But guess what? We also have our cross to bear, and the least that we can do is get this right. It's not too much to ask, and we owe our answers. And I don't care what color you are, I don't care how or when you got here, whatever. That's the least that we can do. All right, I said my piece about that. I'm good. I bring it back, but I started thinking about rodesa Rue and the sacrifices she made. And, you know, we have to be we have to be mindful that we're not here on our own, that others helped us to get here. And I'm not saying every you know. I just think it's important to be grounded and know that we have our own responsibilities in our generation to fix the things that that need fixing, and it's an ongoing process. Our kids will have theirs, you know, but we can't abdicate our responsibility because we're trying to cosplay as as a different generation.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Kareem, you should bring that up, because my son who has dyslexia, and he knows that I have spent, well his entire lifetime, helping him with literacy and helping his father, who has dyslexia, and my son said to me the other day, because now he's in college, and thankfully, he reads very well, and he loves to read and he loves writing, which were things that I'm so grateful for. I didn't think that was going to happen, but he said to me one day, he said, Why are you still doing this? I can read. And I said, I'm doing this for everyone who's coming after you. Because just. Axia never stops, and my son goes, Oh, that's true, that's true, but that's why we do right? Because you're not the only one, yeah, glad I could help you, but there are others, right?

Unknown:

That's right, that's powerful, that's powerful.

Donell Pons:

Yeah? So Kareem, with your tremendous experience, what do you think are some of our biggest barriers to improving reading reading outcomes for students. What have you

Unknown:

seen? Number one thing, adults can't get along?

Donell Pons:

Yeah, the sounds,

Unknown:

yeah, that's not one thing. We're so tribal about everything. We can't even, we can't even walk two feet without stumbling over each other. It's we have really lowered the bar for being an adult in this country, you know? And I'm not, I mean, like, I include myself in that too. Like, there's some things that just get on my nerves. And I'm like, wait a second. Hold on. Wait a second. You mean to tell me that my parents went through some of the things they went through, and I get irritated just because somebody cuts me off in the road. We just gotta, we got to put on our big boy and big girl pants and take care of business. That's the biggest that's the it's a lack of maturity, or maybe it's desperation. You know, sometimes desperate times make strong people, and then those strong people produce folks who don't have desperate times, and they get a little weaker. It could just be that a normal cycle of things. Maybe it's our kids, you know, we'll carry it on. But I think that's the biggest thing, and I say that because our lack of focus, how else can we let it get this way? How else can we let a generation of children grow up and they just cannot read? They just can't, I get it is not can't. They just aren't. Something is going on. You know, black folks, when slavery ended, we were there was a 9% literacy rate in the black community. When slavery ended, 9% a generation later, it was 71% 71% like and now here we are saying, well, the kids can't learn to read because they're traumatized. Oh, really. Oh, really. So they need a social emotional doesn't at some point. At some point we have to, we have to look in the mirror and say it's about us, the adults. Kids are going to be kids. Kids are always knuckleheads for the most part, right? But it's the adults being adults that makes the biggest difference. Then there's the technical stuff. We have to get curriculum that works. We need schools of education to get their act together and really pay attention to the science and the research consensus and update their methods classes. There's a disconnect in many places in higher ed, because why do I have to change? I don't have to change. They don't see the downstream effects of some of the things they cling to. And this is something that the Department of Justice said about 30 something years ago, 33 years ago, they named this in this report about recidivism. It is, it is something that is unknown, but we just haven't dealt with. We're more concerned about what the football team is doing at the university than what the education department is doing. So there are some things that that that we really need to focus on. You know, the American Federation of Teachers has been saying this for a long time, a long time, and people say, Kareem, how can you quote the American How can you quote the teachers union? Man, I don't. If it's right, it's right. If it's wrong, it's wrong. I'm talking about reading they lay out. You can probably still find our website, you know, elements of an effective reading program. It's all right there. The words a little different, but it's the same stuff. So we've got to get out of our tribal bag and look to find what works and follow it, learn from it, discover it. Our ability to work together and build coalition, our I just, like, we just have to do better. Policy matters. It's important to have a policy about reading in the state, but then at the district level, have to put feet on it. We did a podcast recently with Mississippi's Department of Education. You know, they they went from 50th in the country to about ninth or seventh, like they really have. And so we asked them, they were gracious with their time, and they broke down exactly what they did. And rather than spend all your time here on it, like, I will go listen up to that, you know, part two of this podcast. Go listen to that one, and it just break down like, oh, they did this, this, this and this. Maybe it doesn't work here. Maybe this does, but we have to be more curious about what works Ed, trust, you know, it's a risk having me on here, because, you know the there have been others who have tried to elevate this topic, Education Trust, which is a very prominent that's like a Think Tank, I guess. Organization, they did this wonderful series called extraordinary districts, ran about five seasons and went around the country. They looked to see what was working. What districts around the country were beating the odds. You know, lots of poverty, high achievement or no poverty, even more achievement, just just they beat the odds. But do you know, after five seasons, they stopped because nobody was watching. They didn't have any views. You look at some of those episodes and Donell I tell you, 20 views, five views, 15 views. There's one secret Delaware that has like, 570 views. Last I checked, and I guarantee you, 550 of those views are coming from me. Like that was me, me and I go to conferences. Everybody. Scroll this up, and they would go look. Otherwise we weren't paying attention. So do we have the appetite for success and to really focus our attention on things that are going to benefit society, our kids, our families, our communities and

Donell Pons:

our schools. Yeah, interesting. And Lindsay, you can speak to that in the space where you teach. How often do you have parents come into your classrooms and their main concern is, what's reading? How are we going to teach reading? Do they talk about

Lindsay Kemeny:

it for sure? Like, that's the number one thing at the beginning of the year. I feel like, I mean, as a first grade teacher, that's the number one thing. Like, I have them fill out a form at the beginning of the year. Concerns goals for their child. Number one thing is always about reading. Yeah,

Donell Pons:

yeah. We have a desire. There. Parents have a desire. And Stacy, you're higher ed. What about folks who are coming into the space to learn to be teachers? Are they concerned at all about being prepared to teach reading? Or haven't really thought about it?

Stacy Hurst:

I've been thinking a lot about that as I'm listening to you, Kareem, because when we talk about even little things, like people don't read as much anymore, I ask my students to tell me the five most impactful books they read. And some of them say I haven't read a book since I was in middle school. And these are people who want to be teachers, and I don't know how front of mind reading is. They're also very surprised to learn that reading doesn't just come naturally. And I also think that as we're talking and we can be individually as teachers in whatever space we're in, as good as we can be, but if systems aren't in place to continually support those students that leave our classroom because we don't stay with them from pre K through college, then I'm just hearing you, and we're saying we can do better, and we have all of this information that I didn't even have as a pre service teacher, but I'm just, I don't know, in my head, I'm just thinking, Yeah, let's, let's get it together adults, let's focus on this and see what we can do. Because and as you're talking to these are powerful reminders, but maybe our affluence has gotten in the way of us remembering that, or those of us who did not struggle learning to read, we take it for granted and maybe a little humility is in, you know, is called for

Donell Pons:

it's interesting. It's interesting to think about. I'm thinking of a superintendent that we had on not too long ago who was also talking about when it became a priority for the whole community. Cain, that goes back to where you started us, at the beginning of this conversation, when it's important to everyone in the community and we consider that our children and teaching our young ones, this very important skill becomes our number one priority, then we're bound to be successful with it. It just hasn't. It isn't, and we need to figure out why, and how do we change that, huh? Well,

Unknown:

it comes down to a very, very human question in wrestling with it, which is, who is your neighbor? Who is your neighbor? Because most people want what's good for their own children? Like, that's human nature. But what about your neighbor's children? Who do you consider to be your neighbor? And that's the second question that has to be asked, and once a community comes to grip with that, well then there's we have to be neighborly. Like, I want your kids to be all right, I really do want you, neighbor to have kids who are all right. It matters to me that your kids okay, and when we when we have that our policies reflected, our budgets reflected our curriculum, our training, you know, our services, our supports, that they reflected. But you can't have a situation where you know we're all just focus on our own kid, and then we're then we are scared of our neighbors kids, but we never tried to support them and get them the very basics that their civil rights entail them to. That's that's tough. That's tough work in our prisons are filled with kids like that who we. We didn't really prioritize them until they were desperate. And out of desperation, more than likely did something very regrettable. It's not enough to just clutch your purse in dark alleys or to put your hand on your wallet. You know, in first grade, second grade, third grade, the least we could do is teach our neighbor's children to read and then let the chips fall where they may. But in a decent society. We want, at least, we want our children to have a shot at things, and we want our neighbors children to have a shot at things. So like I said, the question really is, who's

Donell Pons:

your neighbor? Yeah, well, you got us thinking about a lot of really important things on this literacy journey. So Kareem, I've got a question for you, because we're getting close to wrapping up. I know you're really busy, but if the literacy movement succeeds, let's all just go there in our heads for a minute, because we've been at this a long time. If the literacy movement succeeds, what would schools look like differently in 10 years? Let's give ourselves 10 years. If we succeed at this, what do schools look like? Then it's utopia, in my mind.

Unknown:

Well, I would say, you're put this way. I was in a school district that turned around, it was the lowest in the state of Delaware, and then six years later, it was the highest in terms of third grade reading or fourth grade reading, whatever the metric was, and, and, and they're featured in that Ed trust podcast. That's why I went out

Donell Pons:

there.

Unknown:

And what I can tell you is that in school districts where things are going well, there's a high SPP ratio, and you cannot undervalue SPP. It is, it is the one metric that everybody just recognizes being Wow. That place got a high SPP. That's smiles per person. And when you walk there, there's just a joy. Kids are happy. Attendance is up. Disturbances are down because that dog on SPP is high, everything else kind of falls in place. Adults are getting along. They actually like their job. I had a talk with a union leader out there, and he was like, Yeah, we have a waiting list for to get a job here, because people like their job. They love it. I was like, what? Well, you must pay more than he's like, no, no, we, we pay $10,000 less than the one down the road. They just like it here. Now I'm not saying don't pay people. What I'm saying is, when kids are reading, the job changes. It is, it is. There's nothing like teaching. It is. It is a beautiful profession, and when kids are reading, when they're being taught to read, there's a trust that is established between teacher and student, that that changes everything. I'll give you an example. When I was a teacher, I had a habit of going to the principal and saying, Give me your five lowest kids are the ones who are acting out. Ones who are acting up the most, and just start my class roster with those five, right? And it never failed, I would always go to the kids and I'd say, hey, look, I know how to teach you to read. I'm good at it. I know how to do it. So if you just do your part, sit down, be quiet. Work hard. I got you. Now, if you screw around, that's on you. But this is your shot right now. I'm doing this a long time. I always had kids who took that deal. Always, they never had someone say, now I'm good. I'd rather not know how. And I'll tell you, my classroom was an oasis of peace. It was funny, it was lively, it was energetic, it was all the things that I'm usually not, you know. But you know, kids are bringing their full selves to the thing, and the joy is there because they were learning to read. So in 10 years, that would be the norm, and you're not going to get into curriculum. You're not going to get it with just the policy. It's, it's when kids feel, when kids know they're getting what they need. Man, it's like a weight lifted off their shoulders, and their personal habits come out. And most kids, you know, light up a room when that's happened, and their parents right along with them, you know it so for me, if we solve this, if we get this right, our school buildings will have high SPP places of joy and love and places that all of us would want to send our

Donell Pons:

children too, and that's what it feels like to succeed. They're succeeding.

Unknown:

They feel it's possible. I don't know what's going to happen to kids life. I don't, but the least I can do is give them a shot. Give them an honest to goodness shot. Whether I'm a college professor or a curriculum provider or superintendent, Principal, teacher, whatever, I have a role to play, or parent. We all have a role to play, at least give them a shot. Now, if they screwed up, that's on them.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, like you said, yeah,

Unknown:

just give them a shot. Give them what they need. And they know when we're fulfilling our end of the bargain. They know it, and when they know that we're not, then it gets ugly real fast. You know? To be real fast, but when they know that you're doing what you're supposed to do, when you're helping them and you see them, then you don't need a special program to make them happy. That dog on SPP is high man, the kids, they can't help themselves. They come in beaming and glowing because they're so happy to come to come to school.

Donell Pons:

So Kareem, this has been fantastic conversation, if there's somebody listening right now who really wants to make change, say there's someone who is capable of making change in school. What's one of the first things you would recommend to them, if they're like, boy, this has inspired me. I feel like we really can make change. What's one of the one thing that you'd leave with them to start

Unknown:

out of school? You said,

Donell Pons:

at a school, at a school,

Unknown:

okay? It depends on your role,

Donell Pons:

yeah.

Unknown:

But if I'm at a school and here are a couple of different roles, let's say if I'm a school board member, then I'm gonna make sure literacy is on my agenda for every school board meeting. That's a standing item. I'll put literacy as a standing item on the agenda. I'll make sure that it's in a superintendent's work plan, and I'll expect, you know, we'll evaluate them towards that if I am a superintendent, I'll make sure that my strategic plan is updated, and I'm always looking to make sure that my teachers and my principals have clear, concise expectations about what's what's to be expected of them, how many hours a month they were going to observe, you know, what is? What is the alignment between our structures, meaning curriculum and schedule versus other things, and making sure that's all clear in developing instructional expertise. And if I'm a principal of a building, I'm in classrooms, the days of just being a manager are over. You got to get out your office. You have to go see about teachers and kids. This is the time for instructional leadership. And so what I would say to building leaders is that we need your presence, and that means also learning what you need to learn, so that when you get in there, you can be constructive and productive, and making sure that your your school, keeps the data at the center or the data attached to the kids. And that means there's some training I may go by leveraged leadership or data driven instruction book and read through it how to do a data meeting correctly, because that's the heart of things, so that we're not fighting ideological battles, we're attending to the standards and teaching and learning. And if I'm a teacher, I would just say, there's no replacement for preparation, none. You can't fake it. You can't like when you're ready, when you're really prepared, when you have internalized the lesson. You become an artist. It It is a beautiful thing, and that that's something that you have to advocate for, but you have to attend to, like prep time. And I pick a school that has it, pick a district that has it, or a principal who's willing to give you an extended contract to do it consistently, so that you can be your best for kids every day, and that means having extensions and scaffolds and safety nets for every lesson. That means infusing the lessons with language learning, because language is a big part of this, and that means attending to the nuances of sound and detail. So I just yeah, those are some things that I would I would recommend people attend to

Donell Pons:

Kareem. That was fantastic. I mean, on the fly, you

Unknown:

asked, I'm not gonna say go buy lottery tickets. One more thing for kids. I would say, don't give up. I've seen kids who have been ninth graders, who could not read, who now are doctors, engineers, businessmen and women, or whatever. I have seen it. Some, I have taught some, I have worked with, some I know, do not give up. That's what I would say to the kids. And if you're not being supportive, Don't believe the hype of saying you can't do it. You can do it. It has been done before. People that you see all around you, famous people, not so famous people. You know, 43% of the Self Made Millionaires are dyslexic, so that means they struggled, likely, but they didn't give up. It's not too late. I don't care if you're a senior in high school about to graduate, there's something that you can do, there's something there's help that you can get, that you can ask for, that you're entitled to because somebody's paying taxes, doggone it for you to get the help that you need. So that's what I would say to the students as well.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, I love that. A great reminder, because, Kareem, that's always when I walked into a classroom of my students and I didn't know any of them yet. First of the year, I just saw potential. That's what I say every time I just see a room full of potential, because they do. You're absolutely right. You don't know. You have no idea, no idea potential of that student. Yeah, well. They can accomplish fantastic Okay, cream, you've given us a lot today in this fantastic conversation. How generous you are, not only with your time, but also with your knowledge and things that you have developed over the years. And we really appreciate it. It's been so much fun to be here and chat with you. Thank you so much.

Unknown:

Donell, I appreciate it. It's been a pleasure. Lindsay, same with you. I appreciate you. What a duo, what a team you guys are. So thank you for having me, and I hope everyone, just everyone, has to take the baton and take a few steps with it, like many hands make light work so we can do this. And thank you for elevating this, this important issue.

Donell Pons:

Yeah, you betcha, absolutely. So to our Literacy Talks listeners, I hope you enjoyed this episode. You are part of our community. We are all in it together. So today we were joined by yet another member of our community, all of us together. Kareem Weaver, thank you so much, and that was our episode of Literacy Talks.

Narrator:

Thanks for joining us today. Literacy Talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where literacy momentum begins. Visit readinghorizons.com/literacytalks to access episodes and resources to support your journey in the science of reading.