Literacy Talks
Welcome to Literacy Talks, a podcast from Reading Horizons, where reading momentum begins. Each episode features our trio of literacy champions: Stacy Hurst, an assistant professor of reading at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor at Reading Horizons; Donell Pons, a dyslexia specialist, educator, presenter, and writer, who now works with adults with reading challenges; and Lindsay Kemeny, a dedicated elementary teacher who is a CERI-certified Structured Literacy Classroom Teacher and author of 7 Mighty Moves.
Each episode is a conversation among friends with practical literacy strategies, powerful tips, and a real passion for teachers and students alike. Listen, laugh, and learn with Literacy Talks, brought to educators everywhere by Reading Horizons.
Literacy Talks
Episode 122: From Awareness to Action: Lessons from Literacy Changemakers
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
What does it really take to improve literacy outcomes? In this wrap-up to the Changemakers series, Stacy Hurst, Donell Pons, and Lindsay Kemeny explore the systems, support, instructional practices, and leadership moves behind Mississippi’s widely discussed reading gains. From structured literacy and coaching to accountability and long-term implementation, this episode connects big-picture reform to practical classroom impact. Listeners will walk away with insights into how lasting literacy change happens—and what educators at every level can do to support it.
Show Notes
In this episode, we discuss:
- The national conversation around the “Mississippi Miracle”
- Why literacy improvement requires systems, support, and sustained effort
- The role of structured literacy and the science of reading
- Accountability paired with coaching and professional learning
- Why implementation matters more than quick fixes
- Classroom-level takeaways for raising expectations and supporting readers
Resources Mentioned
The Daily podcast episode: “The Miracle Unfolding in Mississippi Schools” (The New York Times)
Reading Horizons: Literacy Talks Podcast
NAEP (National Assessment of Educational Progress)
💬 Want more insights like this?
Subscribe to the Literacy Talks Podcast Digest for episode recaps, resources, and teaching takeaways delivered straight to your inbox!
Core Instruction and Reading Intervention. One System. One Path Forward.
From Pre-K readiness to advanced fluency, Ascend®️ gives educators a consistent, needs-based approach to literacy—helping every teacher deliver the right instruction and every student build lasting mastery, one skill at a time. Coherent literacy for lasting impact.
Do you teach Structured Literacy in a K–3 setting?
Sign up for a free license of Reading Horizons Discovery® LIVE and start teaching right away—no setup, no hassle. Sign-up Now.
Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere, brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy Talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights and practical strategies for helping all learners reach reading proficiency. Our hosts are Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor for Reading Horizons. Donell Pons, a recognized expert and advocate in literacy, dyslexia and special education, and Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author and speaker. Now let's talk literacy.
Stacy Hurst:Hello and welcome to this episode of Literacy Talks. I'm Stacy Hurst, and I'm joined by Donell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny, and today we are going to talk about something that could be considered a hot take, because the news story that we are responding to was just released on the Friday before we're recording this on Monday. But this is something that's been the topic of conversation for a while, and Donell, we had something else planned to talk about, but you were the smart one to say, Hey, I think we should address this, so I'm going to turn the time over to you and let you introduce our topic. Great. Well, I think it is fitting. It's not
Donell Pons:really outside of what we were going to discuss, because we have had quite a few folks on the podcast lately who have been researchers or people involved in some way trying to make change in reading and reading outcomes. And so this really did seem fitting to kind of switch gears and focus in on a podcast. And isn't the only source. There's been a few stories, and you'll probably hear more, but it was a podcast by the daily so if you want to look it up, and it was called the Miracle unfolding in Mississippi schools. And this one happened to air Friday, April 10. It's roughly 30 minutes of runtime. The reporter is Sarah mirvash, and she's an education reporter at The New York Times, and she focuses on K through 12 schools. And here she was focusing in on what has been called and is being called the Mississippi miracle. It's a change in reading scores. Now, to many folks in the reading space, Mississippi and its desire to change reading scores and and making efforts towards that end is not new. There are many of us. In fact, I had to look back on my notes to see the first time I heard Mississippi coming up at a reading conference. It was years ago in their desire to make a change, and many people have traveled to Mississippi to see parts of it. So like I said, if you're in the reading world, a lot of this will not be new, but it was nice to see a reporter and some of the news coming in and taking a look at what they've been doing in Mississippi and trying to pull it apart and sharing what it is they're finding as reporters. So that was kind of interesting to hear that take and the surprising headline, obviously, is calling it a miracle in Mississippi. But those of us who are in the reading world know that this is no miracle. There's a lot of hard work. That's what this is. That's the takeaway. But not to take away from them. They went from 49th ranked in reading and in many parts of their education system, with their students to in many parts leading. That's huge. So I'm going to give credit where credit is due. That's huge. And that is called a turnaround. If you want to call it a miracle, go ahead and Mississippi started with very low literacy rates and a challenging they have challenging population demographics and socioeconomics, like a lot of places across the country. So that is to say they have a lot to offer in terms of looking at their system and what they've done. And the core question is, how did they take a poor, underperforming state in reverse course, and improve faster than almost anywhere else. And it took a lot of different things, and each of us, I know, we were chatting right before we started this podcast of ours. We were chatting about some of the takeaways, and re listening to it. We listened to it on Friday, and then listen to it again. So you can take the key takeaways, but I think I want to lead with one of the things the reporter led with, and she was quick to point out it was sweeping legislative changes in the state. And so Stacy and Lindsay, I'm going to have you both respond to that. Lindsay, what did you think of that sweeping legislative changes across the state?
Lindsay Kemeny:Well, it started from the top, and they just had a lot of different support at all levels, I felt like, so when I hear that starting for the from the top, but it wasn't just like, it wasn't like a gotcha attitude or anything. It was really like, how do we support teachers in doing this work? At least that's what it seemed like, you know, from what they were sharing. So I. So exciting to have, you know, literacy instruction, get the recognition and kind of the you know that it deserves, you know, at all levels. Because sometimes I think it's so easy in education to get off on these other little things or new shiny things, right? And all the attention goes there. So, so wonderful. I think, coming from the top, the legislation focusing back on the basics, right? We got to get the basics right. So, yeah, I loved the support that that seemed to show.
Donell Pons:Yeah,
Stacy Hurst:Stacy, how about you? A big focus in the article too, was accountability, but like Lindsay is saying, it wasn't accountability without support, it was accountability with support, and accountability on all different levels of the system. One thing that I read in the Atlantic, which actually the article that I referred to, was updated just a day before this podcast episode came out that we're responding to. It was rich, written by Rachel cantor. She mentioned that this legislation started as early as 2008 the accountability and they would they had in place that if scores were not improving and students weren't reading, then the superintendent the school board president could be removed. So it was all levels, like Lindsay said, All levels of accountability. But then with subsequent legislation, it seemed like they provided a lot more support for that, which was very beneficial, I think. And it reminded me of, I don't know who actually said it, but I heard it from Adam Grant, who said you fell to the level of your systems. So this wasn't just we're going to rely we're going to put all of our eggs in the basket of a high quality curriculum. It was all levels of instruction and support for that instruction.
Donell Pons:Yeah, I like Stacy that you're pointing out, one of the things I alluded to this has been Mississippi has gone after this for a long time. This isn't an overnighter. This isn't a quick fix. They've been in this for a long time and in the long haul. And then the other piece both of you alluded to and pointed out is that it's many layers. It isn't just one layer, but many, many layers. And also the point that both of you have made it isn't just punitive, where we've put in we're going to you have to be at this point. You have to meet these expectations, but it's also with support that we're talking about, too. So they've worked at it, and they obviously have a blueprint, but that blueprint took a lot of time to shape, and so I think that's that's key to recognizing part of that what both of you are talking about, and let's just go ahead and name it is, they did a shift to what is called the science of reading that we discussed much on this podcast. But that was one of the key shifts, is that they moved to what they call the science of reading, which emphasizes phonics based instruction that was part of their large, sweeping legislation. What did you guys think of that? It
Lindsay Kemeny:was interesting. I mean, no surprise, right? We it was interesting. You know, it's interesting hearing people talk about this who aren't in the education field. So when one of the reporters was kind of talking about, well, instead of, instead of, you know, teaching a love of reading, you're teaching them to sound out words. I can't remember exactly how she said that, you know, and it's just, you know, my thought is, yeah, that's how you teach them to love to read, is to teach them to read, and then they have the option, if they don't know how to read, they're not going to love it, right? And just so it's, it's, it's always, to me, just fun and interesting to listen to how someone describes this whole process.
Donell Pons:Yeah, yeah. How about you? Stacy,
Stacy Hurst:yeah. And they did mention phonics, right? They made sure to meant to mention phonics, yeah.
Lindsay Kemeny:And they said
Stacy Hurst:becomes about
Lindsay Kemeny:Yeah. They're like, phonics is how you you when you teach students to sound out words. That's what they said, Yeah,
Stacy Hurst:yeah. And then they gave an example of teaching explicit vocabulary, which I thought was good, yeah, so that was interesting. And yeah, no surprise to us, but I do think there are some states that are still really in the initial stages of adjustment to a change and a focus on the science of reading. And I think if you look back, Mississippi and other states had some portions of it before, but maybe there were loopholes or other ways around it. And it seems to me, at this point, I'm thinking, Yeah, at this point, it seems like Mississippi has, like Lindsay said earlier, it's really from the state down, and they're saying you will use you choose from these five, you know, five high quality. Uh, instructional materials that are aligned with the science of reading and their coaching is all aligned. So, yeah, solid through line.
Lindsay Kemeny:One thing I just want to add is like you heard right in just a little, little teeny snippet that they didn't think the science of reading was just phonics, which was really great, because they talked about how they're teaching them phonics, like to sound out words. They're also teaching them vocabulary, like you mentioned that Stacy, and they, they, you know, kind of talked about, you know, for example, there was this word and they didn't know what it was, or, you know, and they were talking about the meanings. And I love that, because I think hopefully, you know that does show that Mississippi isn't only focusing on phonics, they're taking that comprehensive approach that we know is what the science of reading truly is.
Donell Pons:Yeah, the whole structured literacy, right? Is full complement of understanding in reading and writing. And so I was glad to see that pointed out as well. And it was interesting, because there was a point at which Stacy that that you were, you brought us to where they're going over vocabulary the teacher is, and there's a moment where the teacher mispronounces a word, and the teacher has a coach in the room. So this is to that piece that we're all we've all been talking about where they're providing training coaching in the school, so it's not just a high level of expectation of where they want kids to be, but then they're also saying, we're going to help you be able to get there. And it isn't just about the materials they're using. It's about how teachers are teaching too. And I thought it was interesting that they used that piece with a teacher who mispronounces a word. And normally that might be a concerning, embarrassing moment for a teacher in front of a classroom, but they pointed out how quickly the teacher, the coach at the back of the room, comes to the front, quickly tells the teacher what the mistake is and helps the teacher, and then the teacher proceeds with the class having corrected herself. And there doesn't seem to be any stigma attached to it. There doesn't seem to be any concern that the teacher is going to be upset. I thought that was really interesting and important, because it's critical to the change, isn't it that we're talking about
Lindsay Kemeny:well, and kudos to the coach, is what that says to me, right? Because the reporters were saying that might be something that teachers get prickly about having this coach there. But no, she said, the school we were at, the teachers seem to love it. So I mean, that tells me that that literacy coach has it going on, and she's she or he, has built those relationships. They have this non threatening environment. The teacher feels safe. They're trying different things. They're being supported by the coach. And then it's, and I think it's important to point out, because the first thing they mentioned was the teachers all got, like, professional development training, right? But it didn't just stay there, because they had coaches helping them implement it. So that is really key. I think both of those together.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, I wondered that specific example that they gave of the the pronunciation of the word that the teacher initially gave. I actually wondered if that was dialectical right.
Donell Pons:I know
Stacy Hurst:it was really important that she pronounced that middle sound because of the spelling. And so that does show that that coach had such a sophisticated eye and ear for what needed to be corrected, just to ensure that students wouldn't be confused by the spelling compared to how it was pronounced. So and and to the teacher again, like Lindsay said, kudos for being just they're all putting kids first. That's what it seems like.
Lindsay Kemeny:I loved my coaching experience back when, like, being coached, when I did an Orton Gillingham, like, what's the word? Like, a kind of getting my certification or whatever, yeah, and I had to submit videos, like, of my lessons and and then even one time she came and watched in person, and just getting that feedback regularly was huge. That was so helpful,
Stacy Hurst:and just the moment that is so powerful, like,
Lindsay Kemeny:more incredible, yeah, absolutely,
Stacy Hurst:yeah. I'm thinking of my students, and I teach two sections of the same class, which is when my my students are tutoring. If I'm there in the moment, it's so much easier to give immediate feedback than it is if I'm watching a video, which is still important. But that's a powerful move that Mississippi made, I think. And if, and I know they, I think they provided coaches for the lowest performing 25% of the schools, but I bet more than that. Wanted them, you have to
Donell Pons:start somewhere, right?
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, yeah,
Donell Pons:prioritize. I know I appreciated that too, talking about the nitty gritty of how you make that happen across the whole system, but. I appreciate this bit, because it's important what you've both said, and Lindsay, you bringing up the fact that you wanted additional training, and so you enter into a practicum to be trained. So this is the piece we want to be trained. We want to know how to do things that's just it is we have a desire to be better at what it is that we do so we can help our students, and this is amazing that a whole state is taking on helping teachers to receive that it's important, right?
Lindsay Kemeny:And you know, the coaching process that they're going through is obviously beneficial. That's one of the reasons why the teachers love it. So it's not punitive where it could be. And I've experienced that where I've talked to teachers, and they had some, you know, whatever company working with their school to give feedback, and I was asking them to describe that to me, and they're like, basically a whole bunch of people come in. They watch you teach, and then afterwards, they tell you everything that was wrong, and they don't tell you any, way, like, what to do different or what to help, they just tell you everything you did wrong. And I'm like, That is awful. That is terrible. That is not how the coaching process should be. And and even if that's not the intent, if that's how it's being received, then we've got to change, like, what, you know, change the process and what's happening. And so it just seems like Mississippi had has a good handle on that coaching process and those coaching cycles, maybe,
Stacy Hurst:yeah, and it kind of goes back to accountability, even right with support. And I was thinking about that in my experience coaching and see and being coached and watching people be coached, it is when the reporter said, you would think the teachers would be prickly about that. That's not out of the realm of possibility. In some cases, as a teacher, I might be too, depending on how it's approached. But one thing Mississippi also did was acknowledge that higher ed needs, it needs to start there and the pre service realm. And I think when you level set that with teachers across the state who are in service teachers to say, maybe to admit, hey, we know you weren't prepared with this information. You know that's not on you. The system's held accountable, and now we're going to support you to increase your knowledge and improve your practice. And that's powerful.
Donell Pons:Yeah. So I thought that was important. It named that the state got involved in mandating. So there was legislation about what was going to be taught. So that's science of reading, and everybody came on board, so there's no arguing about what it is we're going to teach that's important. These are important pieces. And then there's intensive teacher training. And as Stacy has pointed out, we don't know. We're not giving you all the intricacies of how they're trying to make that happen with the budgets. However, we know they're prioritizing, right? They are finding a way to prioritize by by probably statistically, to help with those parts that could use it the most in the beginning, and then hopefully it grows across the state. We would hope that's all everybody's hope, that everybody gets the training. There was early testing and intervention, so students were screened early and often, K through three, and struggling readers would get targeted help and individual reading plans if needed. So that was really important. We cannot emphasize this enough, because how often do you hear or see someplace that says, Oh, we're good. We're really interested in reading and turning things around. But there is around, but there isn't very good testing, and the intervention doesn't follow very well. And you think you can turn things around. What'd you guys think of that? Thought that was interesting.
Lindsay Kemeny:Well, they brought up, too at this time, the reading first, and how this kind of reminded them, and how everyone was really negative about the testing. And they did, you know, it was interesting how she did mention, like, yeah, the teachers had to do testing every two weeks. Like, that was just, you know, a lot, and we know as educators that that's progress monitoring, right? So they were making sure to progress monitor their students every two weeks, which we know is really good, which you know, perhaps the reporters don't fully understand that that should be guiding your instruction, and that's kind of how you know if what you're doing is working, or if you need to change things. And they're little, little checks. I don't know what like screeners or what they're using for progress monitoring, but it's usually only a couple takes a couple minutes, right? And so I thought, anyway, I just thought that was funny, but that's good. So that tells you that they, like you said, Donell they have the good assessment in place, and they're they're using it,
Stacy Hurst:yeah? And I think that assessment matters, because anytime they talk about progress or placement in the in the States, or whatever it is, according to what assessment you know, who's saying that this is the case? That's why nape is referred to so much, because it's the common assessment we all have to refer to. But one thing they did do was they actually in the way of assessment, they designed a new assessment of. And I don't remember in 2012 ish that reflected, it was designed to reflect a national bar for student performance. We've seen in some states, they lower the bar. It's kind of, if you don't succeed, first, lower your standards, kind of a thing. But they upped them. That not only in the state standards that they were asking teachers to meet with the science of reading approach, but also saying in our assessment, we will, you know, it will be a national bar. So I thought that was important too.
Narrator:Teaching literacy shouldn't mean juggling multiple programs. Ascend mastery by Reading Horizons brings it all together a core comprehensive pre K through five literacy curriculum that connects word recognition, language comprehension, oral language and writing built on decades of proven foundational expertise. Ascend mastery simplifies instruction and helps every student build lasting literacy gains, ascend, mastery will be available for district and school implementation, beginning with the 2026 school year. Visit reading horizons.com/ascend, to learn more and sign up for updates.
Donell Pons:So with that, I'm going to hit a controversial piece that was brought up in the conversation, and that was the third grade. Kate, okay, and this one can be controversial, so students must pass a reading test to move to fourth grade, and if they can't read proficiently, they are held back. It was controversial, but central to the policy. What do you guys think about that?
Lindsay Kemeny:Yeah, I'm not a fan of retention, so that I would just have a huge problem with if we needed to do that. I just, I think that can be really hard on the child. And I don't know, I guess I want to know a little bit more about how they are handling that.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, and I saw this statistic somewhere, that six to 9% of third graders are retained every year in Mississippi. So
Lindsay Kemeny:six to 9% not a lot, and so there's got to be some parameters then around there, like, you know, how low do you have to be to be retained? Because obviously, more than 69% are not meeting benchmark, right? So I just wonder how they decide that,
Stacy Hurst:yeah, they have very narrow requirements for like there are no exceptions to move ahead in the was it that article or another one that they said other states have tried to emulate that third grade retention, but they either didn't provide support for the student or they provided significant loopholes. Yeah,
Donell Pons:yeah, and
Stacy Hurst:yeah. You know, in our state, Donell Lindsay, you guys know this, our governor just put that in legislation, and there's been all kinds of responses to that,
Donell Pons:yep, the third grade. Kate, it was interesting because I, of course, you know the only getting a smattering, you're getting a snapshot. But some, some of the folks felt that this was a vital piece. Was that they had to have a point at which they said, if you haven't taught it, you have to teach it. And if you weren't able to get help for the students, then you have to be able to get help for the students at this point. So again, like you, Lindsay, I'd like to see more of the nitty gritty, the details on what that looks like. Because certainly in our own state, as Stacy pointed out, we have some new legislation about a third grade Kate, and there are a fair amount of you know, things that are surrounding it. In other words, it's showing how much intervention Have you had? What's the history with the student? All of that is taken into consideration. So that would be interesting to see.
Lindsay Kemeny:Yeah, it would be. And, but you know, and we know, like research just historically doesn't show that they do better when they're retained. However, in this situation there, they really made the point that they don't just get exactly the same right, that there's a lot of right if they are retained. I mean, there's a lot of extra support for that student. So I just, it's just like, I just think back to my son, and if it was my son, gosh, that would have been devastating for his friends to move you know, he gets so connected with friends to have them move on. And he and I, you worry about the self esteem and and, and just what that does to them emotionally and so that's kind of like, I really wonder how, how they handle that
Stacy Hurst:man. That's a topic by itself, right? Because there is a significant amount of research already telling us the emotional impact on a child when they're retained, and third grade is the latest that that they would even say to do that. And even then, it comes with a lot of Cain. Consequences for the students, social, emotional.
Lindsay Kemeny:I've rarely had students where I'm like, I want to retain them, but I have unless a couple things excessive absences. So I've had it where I'm like, this student has missed basically half of the year or more, and, gosh, you know, she would really be helpful if she had a full year of first grade before she goes to second. But, you know, we didn't like in our state, it's very hard, you know, they won't retain so that will be interesting if this all goes through and they start doing this. But yeah, and I think sometimes maybe there's very severe cases that I have been like, okay, I can see them needing to be retained, but wow, it's hard. It's hard. That's tricky,
Donell Pons:that is hard. What was interesting is their fourth grade data. So this was interesting because that data's been poured over, because a lot of people made the comment, well, if you're holding back third graders, of course, your fourth grade data is going to look great, because you're only moving kids forward, right that you feel statistically are going to do well on a test. However, they have really examined that data, and they're not able to pull any correlations to that effect. So I thought that was interesting, because they did ask that question as it would be asked. So that was interesting, yeah,
Stacy Hurst:yeah. It seems like they're maintaining it even into eighth grade. So yeah, those fourth grader, I mean, and those third graders going into fourth grade will eventually take the test, so it's reflective there, yeah, yeah,
Donell Pons:their fourth grade data. You're right, yeah. So we've looked at a few things. Let's sum up a few, because we've talked about a lot of really good things up to this point. There's consistency statewide. It wasn't district to district chaos. Everybody buys into the same thing. And there was accountability for schools and for students. There was a focus on the fundamentals, reading first, everything else, later, and then there was long term commitment. Over a decade, we've talked about how long Mississippi has been at this, and no one can deny they're having fourth grade reading success and even their math scores have indirectly been impacted. We've talked about this before that you will see that right when you improve literacy skills. And now Mississippi ranks higher nationally even after adjusting for their demographics. I thought that was interesting, too. And then, of course, we heard the human impact. There were the students who can now read proficiently and confidently, and then the teachers, we heard firsthand from teachers who were very happy with the support they received and being able
Stacy Hurst:to
Donell Pons:change the emphasis. And so that was all good, but the criticism has been holding students back that third grade Kate that we've talked about. And then there's questions about scalability. So after you listened to all of this, how much of it did you feel was applicable? And again, we didn't get all the nitty gritty, but did it feel scalable and applicable to your state? What did you guys think?
Stacy Hurst:Well, before we answer that question, Can I point something out that you were talking about with the data? And if you look at the arc on the NAEP data for Mississippi, they actually made relatively more progress in the early stages of implementing this, but they weren't raking nationally because everybody else was out pacing them, and now they were the only state that maintained and improved their NAEP scores throughout covid, and for the first time, I think in 2022 they actually passed the national average. But that was the first time, right? So it is a comparison thing too. The fact that they're fourth now on the NAEP data is because our the rest of the country's data is actually going down like we're declining. So I think that's important to note too.
Donell Pons:Yeah, data is data always look closely, right?
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, but the but I still think it's so significant that, and I think we've heard, we heard Kareem Weaver say this, or maybe it was somewhere at the IDA conference. Donell, I've heard it a few times, but what's really impressive about their data is that their socioeconomic data is so good those students who are the poorest, and somebody said it at Ida, can't remember who, but if you are a student who's experiencing poverty right now in our nation, the best place for you to get an education is Mississippi over any other state, because they're number one with that data. So that's pretty cool.
Lindsay Kemeny:So Donell, you're asking if it's scalable, and I think it is. You look at, okay, they started from the top the state. Took a bigger role. What did they do? They got training. They got some kind of professional development for the whole state. They they got coaches to kind of follow up and help with that. There was accountability. They did a grading system of those different schools. You got double. Credit for helping the lowest performers in the class. So you were motivated to really help everyone. And then another thing that we didn't talk about was the curriculum program, like the program. So then they, you know, they really put their money where their mouth is, like, they didn't just say, Yeah, literacy is important. They showed that. So I think, like all those things, yeah, we can do PD, we can get coaches, we can we can have accountability. We can have, you know, we're going to get good programs. I think all of that is scalable, don't you?
Donell Pons:It just made me think so many of these pieces are applicable. What the problem is? As I've seen them done, maybe by a school, maybe by a district, but I haven't seen the whole state right
Stacy Hurst:well, and it was in this episode that they said that some states are piece mill implementing. So instead of exactly replicating it's more of a snowflake with missing pieces, like when you cut it out of paper. And they gave some very specific examples. One that I can think of that was relevant to our state Donell is that they Mississippi appointed a panel of experts to help inform all of this. And what I didn't know until we were preparing for this podcast, is how they appointed those people. The governor got one, or the legislature got one seat, and everybody else was selected. You know, in other ways, but in our state, we tried that, but we didn't allow any pay for that panel. No compensation, and they were appointed by the person sponsoring the bill. And there were some concerns with that too. So you can see how if we're piecemealing from state to state, we're not going to get the results that they did. And maybe our population looks different than Mississippi. But I think it is scalable, if we consider that this is systemic.
Donell Pons:Yeah, and that number one challenge, Stacy, that was listed, was political, and so that speaks to what you're saying about how a panel, perhaps, is selected even, yeah.
Stacy Hurst:Oh. The other thing that really stood out to me, glad you said that, is that this takes time. We've had legislation in Utah, and sorry to keep talking about Utah, but we know it. It's closer to us that has only been enacted for four years, maybe, and already they're talking about massive changes to it, or significant changes, I should say. But this takes time. Implementation takes patience. And one thing that they said in the Atlantic article that I thought was so powerful is that they said that they are resisting the term in Mississippi, Mississippi miracle. And they said for exactly this reason, they prefer to call it the Mississippi marathon, and they say a marathon is always 26.2 miles no matter where or when it's held. There are no shortcuts. Finishing is a human Marvel, but not miraculous. Mississippi took every step, no matter how exhausting, to fix education. And then they said they ended with this, which will answer your question. Other states will have to do the same.
Lindsay Kemeny:It's awesome. You know, I keep seeing this quote and in the more in the business world, but it's so applicable here. Hope is not a business plan, right? Hope is not like your marketing plan or whatever, and it applies here. It's not like, okay, let's just give these teachers this training, and we're going to have this mandated state training, and we're going to hope for the best. Nope, they followed through with these other systems, very specific steps, these other, you know, supports, to make sure that they saw results.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, and they did. You mentioned this earlier, too, Lindsay, they talked a lot about No Child Left Behind, and the high levels of accountability that it required. And I know I was teaching at the time, and I remember, I remember living through that, then I became a literacy coach, and also taking a new angle on that. But interestingly enough, when and again, this all depends on who's in charge, right? Because once President Bush was out of office, who started the initiative, then it became, every student Succeed Act, I think President Obama and so that was not as much accountability at all. I think they talked about that. But interestingly, in Mississippi, when everybody else zigged, they zagged. Everybody else was lowering accountability, and Mississippi was increasing it. And I know there's a negative connotation with the word accountability, so every time we bring it up, I just want to highlight what you both have said from the beginning, that is accountability with support, which I think is one thing that No Child Left Behind was lacking. It's like you will meet these requirements. Good luck, basically
Donell Pons:that, and I would add that we also didn't have what we know today, and it has been said everywhere, and with the advent of the internet, you cannot say you have not heard about it is that there's basic, proven methods, in other words, science of reading, structured literacy, that, when applied Seriously, can transform outcomes. And when I mean seriously, that was that entire state with support. So I think we do have a lot of the pieces. When people say, can it be done and can other states do it? Yes, I think the answer to both is resounding Yes, and we know what to do. It's just getting it done. So I think that was the takeaway. I found it inspiring. And we're encouraging folks to listen to that one the Atlantic, wherever you want to hear it, but it's an inspiring thing to listen to and to talk about.
Lindsay Kemeny:And on the classroom level, we can raise the bar too. So they're talking about raising the bar as a state, but in your own classroom, you can do that. You can raise the bar for the students. Don't lower the bar because of, oh, they have this going on, or this, or the home life is tricky, or they just aren't going to know we can raise the bar and help them reach it and they will exceed it. It's amazing what they can what these students can do when we believe in them and give them the support and instruction that they need.
Stacy Hurst:Yeah, and I also think of a quote I don't know who actually said it again. It was that from Adam Grant, something along the lines of every system is perfectly designed for the outcome that you get. So I think sometimes, as maybe on the state level, this got me thinking about a few things the legislators and the people making these decisions. Ultimately, they do their best, I think, to reach out to their resources, but they might know something of systems, maybe, but they also, very few of them know much about the science of reading or the science of learning, and who they rely on for this information matters, right? And so like, I think states, if they're going to try to replicate what Mississippi did, first, you really do need to acknowledge that your population is not going to be Mississippi, and then look at your own systems and compare to what they're doing systemically, and where you could shore it up. In this Atlantic article, they also said, but reforms that try to copy only Mississippi's commitment to reading science without accountability and support will never deliver the intended results. Fixing education is never that simple. If states really want to replicate our success, they need to understand that what Mississippi did wasn't a miracle at all. So acknowledging it's hard work and it takes time.
Lindsay Kemeny:And I love the reporter who was visiting the school of Mississippi talked about how there was this joy and dignity in the room. And I just, I love that. And you know, I feel that in my own classroom, there is just this this joy from the students when they're successful, and it builds confidence, and there is this dignity, and that's what we want, and we want to strive for. We don't want anyone wandering the halls filled with this hopeless feelings, right? We want them to experience that joy, and we can do that by providing this explicit instruction, the structured literacy for them,
Stacy Hurst:yeah. And the example the reporter gave was this student actually saying he graphs his progress, right? Like a bar graph, he said, and he can see it like steps, which I think was a very powerful part. And then when she asked him, What is your favorite part of school, outside of reading? And she said, it can be anything. And he said, eating in that moment, I'm like, you know, she's authentically at an elementary school. That is a perfect answer for my kid. Thank you so much, Donell for suggesting that we discuss this. I feel like there's so much to unpack here, and many people are looking at Mississippi and doing exactly that, but you are so correct. This is very relevant to our change makers theme, because Mississippi is obviously making sustaining changes, and no matter what level of education we're at, where we're serving in that system, it will give us something to think about. So thank you for that, and to our listeners, thank you for joining us for another episode of literacy talks, and we'll see you next time.
Narrator:Thanks for joining us today. Literacy Talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where literacy momentum begins, visit readinghorizons.com/literacytalks to access episodes and resources to support your journey in the science of reading.